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peterp1972

B5 RS4 Tial 605 build really exists!!

Just popped in to MRC to see if my Tial build is really happening and it's at a nice stage. Engine Pulled, Comp lowering gasket in, iconel manifolds installed and turbos come next. Here are the photo's taken by MRC so far.
á á á á á á














MathiasS

Hmmm These Turbo's do look yummie!
ruxy

manifolds look smart
peterp1972

Were also trying out an alternative to the RNS-E for audio. Should have some photos in about 2 weeks.
H8CAK

Looking Good
Juice

nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lynchy

looking good Pete looking forward to the end result
peterp1972

The engine should be finished by the end of the week. Tuning the week after.
Cant wait
jas11n

Great pictures.
Manifolds look like works of art. Look forward to your updates
Virdee

Looking good Pete!

Automotive porn!
SJS

Looking forward to seeing this in the flesh!
Matt_D

Awesome, keep the pics coming !
supersi

Very nice pete ,what's power and touque your hoping for?
ScottR

Those manifolds look special.
loomx

Cant wait to see what power this gets!
scoobydood

loomx wrote:
Cant wait to see what power this gets!


You and half the world I expect! Once they find out about this build in the U.S. they will be following it as eagerly as we are
peterp1972

supersi wrote:
Very nice pete ,what's power and touque your hoping for?


Power wise around 630PS would be nice and 700ish NM on the torque.

But to be honest, we have no idea
H8CAK

Thought the 605's were good for 500-550bhp?
Silversea

Can't wait to hear the feedback!
Hope it makes the expected power Pete!  
peterp1972

H8CAK wrote:
Thought the 605's were good for 500-550bhp?


Not my ones  
H8CAK

peterp1972 wrote:
H8CAK wrote:
Thought the 605's were good for 500-550bhp?


Not my ones á

You had work done on them?  
peterp1972

No, we don't really know what we'll get.
We are giving these turbos a good chance with all the mods I already have.

Water Meth injection, Iconel Manifolds, Bosch 044, 630cc injectors 3" MRC downpipes and Miltek back, lowering the compression to run more boost, MRC FMIC, Using the larger Tial intake pipes, the 4th timing belt in 95k new plugs, ceramic clutch and LWFW, new maf, N75 etc.. The car even had 4 new camshafts replaced 20k back. 2 were slightly worn so as usual I did the lot instead.


Whatever we do get will the best you can expect from these Tial's.

The 630 mark is what I would like, but if we get close to the 600 mark we'll be happy.
andream88

i want those inconel manifolds so bad.....
loomx

H8CAK wrote:
Thought the 605's were good for 500-550bhp?


I though origonally they were good for 605  
scoobydood

I thought they would produce at least as much as rs6 turbos - even a bit more. Certainly 600hp has been mentioned before.
peterp1972

They should at least match the rs6 turbos. So 600 should be achievable.
Alps

Nice. I've been looking forward for sometime to you getting this work done.

May have to pop over and see you and Juice and Lynchy once you get it back.
lynchy

Be good to see you Mr Alps..
Alps

Cheers dude. I should hopefully have a little more time on my hands in a few weeks. Will finally be able to catch up on a lot of stuff.
satans child

H8CAK wrote:
Thought the 605's were good for 500-550bhp?


they are indeed carl....

and im sure if doug and mrc are as good as most think, they should be able to piss the 465whp and 465wtq at 25psi on 93ron pump fuel...not forgetting that the car that made this power was running a totally standard motor and oem manni's...

i think that with the mods to the car it should be very very easy to make over 500whp and 500wtq á...  
peterp1972

satans child wrote:
H8CAK wrote:
Thought the 605's were good for 500-550bhp?


they are indeed carl....

and im sure if doug and mrc are as good as most think, they should be able to piss the 465whp and 465wtq at 25psi on 93ron pump fuel...not forgetting that the car that made this power was running a totally standard motor and oem manni's...

i think that with the mods to the car it should be very very easy to make over 500whp and 500wtq á... á


Well Doug, you've been set a challenge now  
satans child

not so much a challenge... this is easily achievable on your spec, just dont blow them up as you no longer have any warranty on them...
peterp1972

satans child wrote:
not so much a challenge... this is easily achievable on your spec, just dont blow them up as you no longer have any warranty on them...


In a very dark way, I'm also looking for an excuse to get the 770's
But we'll give these a good run first to answer everyones question as to how they compare to the kkk''s
satans child

believe it or not the 770's actually spool quicker, and have so so much more in the top end it's silly.....  
peterp1972

TBH, if they can comfortably run 600PS without excessive boost and don't have too much lag. These Tial's will become very popular very quick.

The car will be at ADI and anyone wishing to try out the Tial's is more than welcome. No redlining the car though.

This should make all the suppliers of Tial products very popular.

However if they blow up, well then I don't think anyone will ever order the 605 kit.

As for warranty, I really don't mind wasting or investing 3k to prove or disprove a point.
peterp1972

satans child wrote:
believe it or not the 770's actually spool quicker, and have so so much more in the top end it's silly..... á


I'll be talking Doug to get these on after the MRC Rolling road. Want to run the 605's for at least a month or 2 first. The other problem is how long it takes to get these kits in.
supersi

satans child wrote:
not so much a challenge... this is easily achievable on your spec, just dont blow them up as you no longer have any warranty on them...


Why No warranty ?
peterp1972

supersi wrote:
satans child wrote:
not so much a challenge... this is easily achievable on your spec, just dont blow them up as you no longer have any warranty on them...


Why No warranty ?


I thought this might start some questions. I'm sure Doug would still get a warranty replacement or exchange if something goes wrong. I think it refers to Doug not buying from Satan's Child racing

I'll let Doug answer this one but I'm really not concerned either way
Mihnea

satans child wrote:
H8CAK wrote:
Thought the 605's were good for 500-550bhp?


they are indeed carl....

and im sure if doug and mrc are as good as most think, they should be able to piss the 465whp and 465wtq at 25psi on 93ron pump fuel...not forgetting that the car that made this power was running a totally standard motor and oem manni's...

i think that with the mods to the car it should be very very easy to make over 500whp and 500wtq á... á


93 US pump fuel equals to 98 RON....
DavidT

Retitled slightly & moved to the 'Projects & Builds' Forum.

Good luck with it Peter, it's shaping up to be a monster
satans child

peterp1972 wrote:
supersi wrote:
satans child wrote:
not so much a challenge... this is easily achievable on your spec, just dont blow them up as you no longer have any warranty on them...


Why No warranty ?


I thought this might start some questions. I'm sure Doug would still get a warranty replacement or exchange if something goes wrong. I think it refers to Doug not buying from Satan's Child racing

I'll let Doug answer this one but I'm really not concerned either way


it has nothing to do with doug not buying them from me... as a 3rd party.. no one will get any warranty on these kits, and as mrc have got these from an official tial supplier from the us they are a 3rd party... i have been through this with the designer himself... im sure i dont need to explain what greif we have all been through with turbo suppliers, including turbo dynamics, which mrc now use, they will try there hardest not to warranty them, saying it must have been error in the installation or particals in the oil... so if you imagine i sold you a turbo kit.. you sell it to someone else... am i going to warranty it when they break it....NO

sorry but im only telling you the truth...

jack.
samj

Are your old exhaust manifolds in good condition? Will you be looking to sell them?
Aragorn

satans child wrote:

it has nothing to do with doug not buying them from me... as a 3rd party.. no one will get any warranty on these kits, and as mrc have got these from an official tial supplier from the us they are a 3rd party... i have been through this with the designer himself... im sure i dont need to explain what greif we have all been through with turbo suppliers, including turbo dynamics, which mrc now use, they will try there hardest not to warranty them, saying it must have been error in the installation or particals in the oil... so if you imagine i sold you a turbo kit.. you sell it to someone else... am i going to warranty it when they break it....NO

sorry but im only telling you the truth...

jack.


As a business selling the turbos, the UK sale of goods act puts the responsibilty on the RETAILER not the manufactuer to provide the warranty etc, so it doesnt actually matter that its "3rd party".

Given Satans Child Racing is a business selling a product, you cannot simply not provide a warranty, as the statutory rights of someone purchasing an item cannot be revoked by a retailer.

Similarly, if MRC sold someone a turbo (or anything else for that matter), its MRC that take the risk of a warranty claim. IF it blew up 3000miles later and the owner manages to prove the product was faulty, the courts WILL ensure they get their money back if the retailer tries to screw them over.

Your statutory rights are based upon the item being fit for purpose, and lasting a reasonable length of time, and infact last a lot longer than most people realise.
loomx

Hmm... dont know the ins and outs of warrenty but im sure there was an EU directive for all products that are bought that are not one off custom products that means that its up to the manufacture/retailer to proove the parts were not defective if they fail with in the first 6 months.

After than its the recipiant who has to prove they were faulty as sold up to I think it was 2 years (This doesnt cover them going wrong in 2 years, but covers it going wrong is something was wrong with the product on delievery.)
peterp1972

samj wrote:
Are your old exhaust manifolds in good condition? Will you be looking to sell them?


I haven't looked at the parts that have come off yet. I'll ask CHris or Doug tomorrow.

The turbo's if still ok are already commited but the intake pipes and manifolds should be available. I'll have more info tomorrow.
peterp1972

satans child wrote:
peterp1972 wrote:
supersi wrote:
satans child wrote:
not so much a challenge... this is easily achievable on your spec, just dont blow them up as you no longer have any warranty on them...


Why No warranty ?


I thought this might start some questions. I'm sure Doug would still get a warranty replacement or exchange if something goes wrong. I think it refers to Doug not buying from Satan's Child racing

I'll let Doug answer this one but I'm really not concerned either way


it has nothing to do with doug not buying them from me... as a 3rd party.. no one will get any warranty on these kits, and as mrc have got these from an official tial supplier from the us they are a 3rd party... i have been through this with the designer himself... im sure i dont need to explain what greif we have all been through with turbo suppliers, including turbo dynamics, which mrc now use, they will try there hardest not to warranty them, saying it must have been error in the installation or particals in the oil... so if you imagine i sold you a turbo kit.. you sell it to someone else... am i going to warranty it when they break it....NO

sorry but im only telling you the truth...

jack.


Well that's fair enough, but I'm sure they won't break. Tials UK reputation depends on it and I'm sure the kit supplied is in perfect condition.
It certainly looks the part.
satans child

peterp1972 wrote:
Well that's fair enough, but I'm sure they won't break. Tials UK reputation depends on it and I'm sure the kit supplied is in perfect condition.
It certainly looks the part.

It's top quality engineering that's not likely to let you down when installed correctly and set-up to spec, that's for sure. I suppose that could be an 'if' factor; but as aragorn points out, as the consumer that liability isn't yours - you're protected by statutory rights/the sale of goods act.

Your rights mean that liability for work done by MRC is theirs; but I maybe could've said manufacturer's warranty earlier to be clearer, because the difference here is that's where the buck stops. When the kit is bought outside the authorised distribution chain, the manufacturer isn't obliged to give a warranty covering the activities of the retailer (MRC) installing/setting it up. You've got warranty by law from MRC, it's just that they don't have one from the manufacturer.

But yeah, it's top quality kit and so long as it's done right, you'll enjoy it.
peterp1972

Thx Jack,
Do you have any idea how many 605 kits have been sold in the states?
There doesn't seem to be many posts or builds.

Pete
philipwalker

There is a very limited warrenty on motorsport components.
peterp1972

Update on the Build.

Doug has spotted the first major issue. Extremely poor quality control    
No wonder we don't see too many threads.




On top of this, the direct replacement kit oil lines don't fit

At this point MRC are going to pull them apart and clean the swarf away and make all the fittings work.

Not a good start from Tial.
mikey-s

Feck me, cleanliness is not an option when building turbos!  Swarf in a new turbo is unbelievable..
jimbo

its not clear what part of the turbo im looking at here peter.
peterp1972

I can't believe Tial, knowing that MRC are going to do a build with their kit had the nerve to send over such kit.

Surely they knew that this build was going to be scrutinized by most of Europe  

This is what pisses me off more than the fact that this gunk could have caused serious damage to my engine.

Let's see what the results bring. Might calm me down
peterp1972

jimbo wrote:
its not clear what part of the turbo im looking at here peter.


Cold side of the turbo.
MarkB

peterp1972 wrote:
jimbo wrote:
its not clear what part of the turbo im looking at here peter.


Cold side of the turbo.


That's fine then. The intercooler can catch the big bits and then the engine can chew all the smaller bits before being pushed out the exhaust by the turbines... á
peterp1972

MarkB wrote:
peterp1972 wrote:
jimbo wrote:
its not clear what part of the turbo im looking at here peter.


Cold side of the turbo.


That's fine then. The intercooler can catch the big bits and then the engine can chew all the smaller bits before being pushed out the exhaust by the turbines... á


Exactly, I'm gobsmacked at the quality control at Tial Motor Sport.
loomx

:O oh dear... not good.
MathiasS

Oh noes , This aint good !
And I was thinking these were the best Turbo's ever built for our cars!

Damnn this is bad!

You're lucky MRC is handy and can make it all good , people installing em themselves or having a handy friend installing em could have had a freakin nightmare!
ollys

satans child wrote:
peterp1972 wrote:
Well that's fair enough, but I'm sure they won't break. Tials UK reputation depends on it and I'm sure the kit supplied is in perfect condition.
It certainly looks the part.

It's top quality engineering that's not likely to let you down when installed correctly and set-up to spec, that's for sure. [b]I suppose that could be an 'if'[/b] factor; but as aragorn points out, as the consumer that liability isn't yours - you're protected by statutory rights/the sale of goods act.

Your rights mean that liability for work done by MRC is theirs; but I maybe could've said manufacturer's warranty earlier to be clearer, because the difference here is that's where the buck stops. When the kit is bought outside the authorised distribution chain, the manufacturer isn't obliged to give a warranty covering the activities of the retailer (MRC) installing/setting it up. You've got warranty by law from MRC, it's just that they don't have one from the manufacturer.

But yeah, it's top quality kit and so long as it's done right, you'll enjoy it.


á á

and in a post largely about manufacturer's warranty too - are Tial going to pick up the bill for the work putting this right - I wonder?
James

What a complete bag of sh1t. Interesting that Jack has seen some really good quality products though.
Juice

peter you sound pisssssssssed, i would be too. im sure it'll be fixed in time.
im shocked that the oil lines they've sent with the kit dont fit!!??
SR71

Whereabouts in the cold side though?

Downstream of the impeller at the start of the volute?

The rating on these turbos is "crank" or "wheel"?

605bhp is about 530whp I suppose...
JohnnyB

Juice wrote:
peter you sound pisssssssssed, i would be too. im sure it'll be fixed in time.
im shocked that the oil lines they've sent with the kit dont fit!!??


Are'nt the kits made to fit S4 not RS4?

I know Grizz had to get oil water lines made up for his 770 kit for his RS4.
peterp1972

All I can say is I'm going to the movies to get my mind off Today.

I'm just as disappointed as I am pissed. I really expected Tial to supply turbos of an exceptional build quality to promote their product in Europe. Not ones that have obviously not been tested or quality controlled. They really look like a rush job.

Add to this my current legal team are being very well paid for very little return.
I thought the idea of having a Senior and Junior lawyer plus a Senior and Junior Barrister was to provide the best possible legal defense. I did not expect to be doing their job as well as mine.
Enough on this subject. I may have to focus their attentions at Tial next.

Lets see how tomorrow goes.
Doug

We'll get there Peter.

There won't be any issue with them since they were bought by the customer direct from the US to a US address - they have just been sent over to be fitted by us.

Wastegates are 1 bar wastegates but spaced out so one is set to 24psi and the other is 21psi. This is too high to get enough resolution for tuning so these have been lowered and matched to 15psi.

The oil supply distributor on an rs4 has been modified so the tial oil lines connect to an RS4 oil distributor.

The charge pipes need cut and welded to shorten them to physically fit.

The oil drain lines kink if bolted straight on so these need cut and rewelded to shorten them.

The intake pipes are really nice but because they are one piece we will cut them in half and make a bracket to hold the lower half to the original position. You can then get access to camcovers without removing the intake pipes completely.
Doug

More pics:









peterp1972

New day and all looks back on track. Engine should be in by the end of the week
jimbo

peterp1972 wrote:
New day and all looks back on track. Engine should be in by the end of the week


what did you go and see last night?
peterp1972

The Town, great action and a proper ending. No soppy happy ending that you usually get.
jimbo

how can the manufacturers get the actuators so far out of balance. if you go on the tail website they witter on about not buying the chinese fake stuff and show lots of photos of genuine vs fake wastegates etc. think id prefer the fake stuff . theres no excuse for the oil return lines not fitting right as the s4 block is the same fitment etc. hope youve had a response from tail. heres the web.

http://www.tialsport.com/
supersi

that's very poor.
kramrs2

jimbo wrote:
how can the manufacturers get the actuators so far out of balance. if you go on the tail website they witter on about not buying the chinese fake stuff and show lots of photos of genuine vs fake wastegates etc. think id prefer the fake stuff . theres no excuse for the oil return lines not fitting right as the s4 block is the same fitment etc. hope youve had a response from tail. heres the web.

http://www.tialsport.com/


Not defending the bad shape of the hole on cold side in anyway, but the wastegates are quoted on the installation manual.It shows how to adjust them and the peak and hold boost at each adjusted level should result on manifold boost.
Juice

the mani's getting coated?
MathiasS

Lucky MRC is doing this build , would have been dramatic otherwise !
AdamS4

Keeping an eye on this. Hope everything goes well.

I've posted a link to this over on Audizine to see what they think of it.... http://www.audizine.com/forum/sho...-MRC-Tuning-B5-RS4-Tial-605-Build
peterp1972

I see the link,thanks Adam. Doug says it's coming together nicely and engine should be back in the car for this Friday.

I'm flying over Friday night and will pop in to MRC on Saturday to check it out.

Might talk to Doug about the comment on the intake pipes popping off under pressure. Maybe a bracket for support as we are cutting them anyway.
Doug

We will be cutting the pipes in half - like stock ones - and welding a bracket on the lower section.
arotished

So stock internal in motor?

I'm thinking of goin TIAL 605 on my car as well, even thought I have RS6 turboes on now.
peterp1972

Seems like the Audizine boys have no faith in European tuners

"mihnea cotet is a good tuner no doubt, people in the USA know him and respect him - but there are plenty of tuners stateside as well .. many tuners with MUCH more experience tuning the tial 605 kit in quesiton. how many has mihnea tuned as of today?

i am very curious to see how mihnea goes about tuning the car especially since he adjusted the wastegate preload to be lower - hope you can hold the boost you are looking to hold "

There was a comment from some illiterate person but I ignored that one. Laaf didn't though.

We'll just have to prove them wrong
musty

peterp1972 wrote:
Seems like the Audizine boys have no faith in European tuners

"mihnea cotet is a good tuner no doubt, people in the USA know him and respect him - but there are plenty of tuners stateside as well .. many tuners with MUCH more experience tuning the tial 605 kit in quesiton. how many has mihnea tuned as of today?

i am very curious to see how mihnea goes about tuning the car especially since he adjusted the wastegate preload to be lower - hope you can hold the boost you are looking to hold "

There was a comment from some illiterate person but I ignored that one. Laaf didn't though.

We'll just have to prove them wrong



I would not worry about what people say you will always find someone for and against what ever you do.

you are taking a big gamble and much kudos to you pete, there 101 people waiting to see what will happen how the turbo's will perform.what ever bhp figure you get i hope your happy with it at the end of the day.
peterp1972

I'll be happy for a few months and then want more power. I might have to finally send this car to Australia and start building something new.

Pete
loomx

Reading the other threads on stateside builds, Fats of 2.8 sound good was expecting a higher MAF reading than about 380g/s though?

Found a wideo on youtube too...


Link
titikaka

peterp1972 wrote:
Seems like the Audizine boys have no faith in European tuners We'll just have to prove them wrong


in every great US project /not including projects on AZ/ the final word has a European or Japanese tuner, so disregard that kind of posts!!!

Looking forward
arotished

So stock internals?
peterp1972

arotished wrote:
So stock internals?


Yes stock internals. RS4 Internals are all forged factory and good for at least 650PS without breaking (I've been informed by a very good source). The RS might cost a little more but in the long run its cheaper once your start modding.
MathiasS

So curious to see the results!

casue the RS Engine is more developed then a S4 engine it should see 500whp with this setup with enough boost
wjn

peterp1972 wrote:
Te RS might cost a little more but in the long run its cheaper once your start modding.
Don't think so. +200HP for the RS4 is just as expensive / as much work as +200HP for the S4.

Btw, conrod specs from Audi:
RS4 = 800-950N/mm▓
S4 = 850-1000N/mm▓
MilkybarKid

wjn wrote:
peterp1972 wrote:
Te RS might cost a little more but in the long run its cheaper once your start modding.
Don't think so. +200HP for the RS4 is just as expensive / as much work as +200HP for the S4.

Btw, conrod specs from Audi:
RS4 = 800-950N/mm▓
S4 = 850-1000N/mm▓


S4 has higher rated rods? Show me where it says that in Audi's own words and I'll believe you.
And Peter's point is when you get to this level, having the RS4 initially is far less expensive than starting with an S. To get an S up to this power you need RS(or better equivalent) intake, inlet, heads, rods + anything that needs changed on the RS.
peterp1972

wjn wrote:
peterp1972 wrote:
Te RS might cost a little more but in the long run its cheaper once your start modding.
Don't think so. +200HP for the RS4 is just as expensive / as much work as +200HP for the S4.

Btw, conrod specs from Audi:
RS4 = 800-950N/mm▓
S4 = 850-1000N/mm▓


I could be wrong but I was always told that the strengthening required was actually the conrod bolts and crankshaft not the rods themselves. As far as I know the S4 only had M8.5 and the RS4 was increased to M9 to take the extra pressure.
peterp1972

Here is a good PDF that explains the difference between RS4's and S4's
www.ibiblio.org/tkan/audi/RS4_Training_Guide.pdf
SR71

Sorry for the thread hijack but...

Quote:
Btw, conrod specs from Audi:
RS4 = 800-950N/mm▓
S4 = 850-1000N/mm▓


Thats weird.

I'm curious but is it normal to spec rods through a range of loads? If it is, thats a hell of a tolerance though? 15%!

I mean, either the part fails at a particular load or it doesn't?
Doug

Intake pipes modified - brackets welded on to stop them popping off under pressure testing.

Intake cut in half and beaded so we can remove the uppers if we need to.

UK passenger side charge pipe cut and beaded, and the bracket that bolts to the sump is rewelded to strengthen it as these tend to crack on the single weld.



titikaka

wjn wrote:

And Peter's point is when you get to this level, having the RS4 initially is far less expensive than starting with an S..


let's not forget the difference in initial price of S and RS which is significant!! so at the end áI believe the S still going to cost us far less expensive....i mean initial price +tuning!!
Simon

Doug wrote:
Intake pipes modified - brackets welded on to stop them popping off under pressure testing.

Intake cut in half and beaded so we can remove the uppers if we need to.

UK passenger side charge pipe cut and beaded, and the bracket that bolts to the sump is rewelded to strengthen it as these tend to crack on the single weld.





That looks good mate - you got a special tool for doing the beading?
Doug

Simon wrote:
That looks good mate - you got a special tool for doing the beading?


Yes - a beader
will1981

Doug wrote:
Simon wrote:
That looks good mate - you got a special tool for doing the beading?


Yes - a beader


Simon

Doug wrote:
Simon wrote:
That looks good mate - you got a special tool for doing the beading?


Yes - a beader


Didn't know if you'd had popped it along to RS to get that done. Handy tool to have  
BennyBoo

Doug wrote:
Simon wrote:
That looks good mate - you got a special tool for doing the beading?


Yes - a beader




Nice - Almost as good as
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/397730/523958.jpg
Doug

one side mocked up
MarkB

I do like those inlet pipes. Shame Tial won't sell them on their own.
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