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nitroracer

HELP 911!!!!

Hey everyone,

I'm new to the forum and specifically created this account to get everyone's opinion. I recently took my 2013 TTRS in for its 15k checkup. The closest dealership is an hour from my home. After they completed the work, I drove back home. The next day when I woke up, I noticed a TON of oil had leaked from under the car. I checked the dipstick and there is essentially no oil. No indicator lights have come on yet, but I suppose that's because I haven't attempted to drive it after this discovery. My guess is some careless mechanic failed to tighten the bolt properly.

I'm wondering what my course of action should be. They have agreed to have the car towed there at their expense (obviously). I'm sure they'd love to get their hands on it before anyone else to cover their tracks. I've documented the issue with iPhone pics and video. There really is no way for me to know the extent of any damage without looking in the engine. Down the line if something funny happens (this is is a new car remember), i'm sure i'll immediately know the culprit if it's engine related. Ideally, I think I want them to replace the engine now, possibly even the car. This is like a patient dying on the operating table - that bad of a mistake…

EDIT: I'm thinking about asking them to double the warranty length, as I purchased this car and intend to keep it for many years. It won't them anything up front and in the event there is an engine issue up the road, then I expect them to have it covered.

Thoughts?
derdle

Pretty careless of the dealership.
Might be worth contacting Audi Customer Services in Milton Keynes to ask them to offer a free extended warranty on the car. Don't be Mr Angry or Mr Shouty with them, just be calm and to the point you're more likely to get a favourable response.

Also - make sure the car is taken on a low - loader rather than towed back to the dealership.
Graham

I think car and engine replacements are an over reaction, at least at this stage. Car replacement I think is at the very far end of unlikely.

You are quite understandably angry/upset about this but you have to also maintain some perspective to get a good outcome.

My experience of Audi dealers making mistakes is they are pretty good at making them good. They will have process for this. And be keen to ensure you are happy.

If there was not any oil level or pressure warnings on your drive home, I don't imagine any damage has occurred. Just my guess. You have discovered the issue (possibly only occuring with hot oil and the engine stopped) before the engine restarted.

You have documented this. Let the dealer collect the car but be clear about what happens next. Deal with an after care manager/service manager or similar at the dealership and be clear you only want a Master Tech to touch the car to investigate and assess.

Ask them how they can guarantee there is not any damage due to oil starvation and go from there. Perhaps insist on an oil analysis. If you want to push further, perhaps ask for an Audi UK tech to give a dealer independent opinion - not sure how likely this is, but has to have better odds of you getting a 15K mile car exchanged.
Searider

No warning lights should mean no damage.
Iirc the engine has a "low oil" light (yellow) prior to the "low oil pressure" light (red).
Have a look in your handbook to confirm this.

Dealer should trailer car back to workshop and rectify the leak / loose sump plug or whatever the problem is.

You could ask them to check and report the oil pressure.
Might also be worth asking for an oil analysis to see if there is an elevated quantity of wear metals.

I don't think there will have been any damage.

No need to extend the warranty - but this may be something they might be able to offer that is worth more to you than it costs them. Certainly worth more than a free or discounted next service.
Cheempeej

Graham wrote:
I think car and engine replacements are an over reaction, at least at this stage. Car replacement I think is at the very far end of unlikely.

You are quite understandably angry/upset about this but you have to also maintain some perspective to get a good outcome.

My experience of Audi dealers making mistakes is they are pretty good at making them good. They will have process for this. And be keen to ensure you are happy.

If there was not any oil level or pressure warnings on your drive home, I don't imagine any damage has occurred. Just my guess. You have discovered the issue (possibly only occuring with hot oil and the engine stopped) before the engine restarted.

You have documented this. Let the dealer collect the car but be clear about what happens next. Deal with an after care manager/service manager or similar at the dealership and be clear you only want a Master Tech to touch the car to investigate and assess.

Ask them how they can guarantee there is not any damage due to oil starvation and go from there. Perhaps insist on an oil analysis. If you want to push further, perhaps ask for an Audi UK tech to give a dealer independent opinion - not sure how likely this is, but has to have better odds of you getting a 15K mile car exchanged.


100% agree.
nitroracer

Thanks for the opinions. I am aware that a flatbed is needed, due to the Quattro system. And yes, I feel better about the situation given that no warning lights came on. However, they would have if not for the sheer luck of when I discovered the issue. Remember, I had an hour drive with this where oil was potentially leaking.

I think the best option is to have Audi, if they claim no damage was done, is to have them put it in writing. Aka, extend the warranty, at least with respect to any engine wear.
nitroracer

Also, on page 185 of the owners manual, it clearly states not to depend on the oil sensors to determine the state of said oil, but to check it manually. Well, I did check it manually and the oil is completely empty...
Graham

nitroracer wrote:
Also, on page 185 of the owners manual, it clearly states not to depend on the oil sensors to determine the state of said oil, but to check it manually. Well, I did check it manually and the oil is completely empty...


But of course you should not rely on the sensors in normal occurrence - it is obviously better practice to check the oil level.

The sensors are there as an emergency warning. An emergency you luckily did not have, by the sounds of it. That does not negate any negligence there was, or the fact there is still a matter to resolve. However what could have occurred is only potentially relevant to how big the dealership's gesture might be. In terms of actually remediating the problem, which would be my primary concern, only what actually happened is relevant. To my logic anyway.

Again I suggest you keep what actually happened in perspective and manage that with the dealership and if necessary Audi UK.

Best of luck and do keep us posted.

When is the dealer collecting the car?
lewiswlawrence

The fact there was a ton of oil under the car is a good thing, there was still plenty of oil in the engine while it was running. As the engine was not run dry you should be fine from an engine internals perspective, only issue might be why the engine is leaking now.

Hopefully just a loose sump plug, either way it sounds like you have the dealer on the hook for any issues now, someone clearly screwed up. I hope it is fine, please keep us informed.
nitroracer

What actually happened is, the car leaked out all its oil. What, if any damage occurred to the engine is, and will forever be, unknown to me in the immediate future. Sure, there wasn't an "emergency". This is a luxury item, though.

The facts are that now I own a brand new vehicle which is no longer befitting of the price I paid, nor the RS badge, with potentially a good amount of internal engine damage which I am sure the dealership will go through great lengths to avoid/deny.

If I ever decide to resell it, the records will necessarily indicate that the car was potentially operated with no oil in it. Any smart shopper will run for the hills. It's basically a black sheep, and if I intend to keep it, I have to live with that fact.
Noggymike

Reading this thread I really feel all things considered you will be fine.

Just remember, even tho there is no reading on the dipstick doesn't meant the engine has run dry. Trust me, if you had been driving the car without any oil in it



YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN ALL ABOUT IT.


An hours drive home may have leaked some oil, through probably the incorrectly fitted sump plug or oil filter, but say 8-10 hrs sitiing on the drive would have leaked way more while the car was not being driven and remember a small amount of oil can spread to give a very false impression of the actual loss incurred.

Yes defo ask for an oil analysis but my guess is that things will be fine.

keep your cool and as Graham has already mentioned I'm sure your dealer will be kicking ass behind the scenes on your behalf to get this issue sorted for you.
Searider

nitroracer wrote:
What actually happened is, the car leaked out all its oil. What, if any damage occurred to the engine is, and will forever be, unknown to me in the immediate future. Sure, there wasn't an "emergency". This is a luxury item, though.

The facts are that now I own a brand new vehicle which is no longer befitting of the price I paid, nor the RS badge, with potentially a good amount of internal engine damage which I am sure the dealership will go through great lengths to avoid/deny.

If I ever decide to resell it, the records will necessarily indicate that the car was potentially operated with no oil in it. Any smart shopper will run for the hills. It's basically a black sheep, and if I intend to keep it, I have to live with that fact.


Why bother asking us the question if you've already made up your mind what the answer is?
We don't reckon there has been any engine damage.
We've recommended to get Audi to prove there isn't any engine damage ( or if there is to discover it)
I can understand your disappointment in having spent your hard earned on a special car, BUT, and maybe I'm an optimist - my take would be "at least it all leaked out during the night when I wasn't driving it". If it had been pouring out when driving it would be all over the back of the car, the low oil light would have come on Followed by the red low oil pressure light. None if which has happened.

As a parallel to this, my previous S4 dumped most of its coolant whilst parked up at Gatwick. The car didn't overheat. The head gaskets didn't fail and the engine didn't seize up. Leak fixed and car all ok.
"Lucky it happened whilst parked and not whilst I was driving"

I'm out.
Ian_C

Noggymike wrote:
Reading this thread I really feel all things considered you will be fine.

Just remember, even tho there is no reading on the dipstick doesn't meant the engine has run dry. Trust me, if you had been driving the car without any oil in it



YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN ALL ABOUT IT.

Agreed.  Spoke to an RS5 owner recently who had oil pump failure on Motorway at 70mph.  30 seconds after the oil light came on the engine had seized.
Trig

Is the rear of the car covered in oil?

Yes, the engine has been run whilst oil has been leaking so therefore potential internal damage.

No, no damage done as oil has leaked whilst car stood still.





In your poll, where is the Contact Dealer and complain option?
nitroracer

The dealer came and picked it up on a  flatbed today. Even MORE oil has leaked, so I suppose that is evidence that there was something still left.

I think best case scenario here is a) no damage was done and b) I get an extended engine warranty out of it.

IN that case, I'd come out ahead altogether.

Remember, the damage has been done, whether internal or not. The resale value has now dropped because records will show this incident, and any smart shopper will use it as leverage to get a reduced price, and certainly any audi-phile will immediately shudder at even the remote thought of the car being driven while leaking oil (they will assume the worst, no matter what I say).

Because this incident was entirely their fault, Audi should rectify the situation until I am wholly satisfied, REGARDLESS of whether the engine was damaged or not.

P.S. the guy Audi sent slipped with his screwdriver while hooking the car up and scratched the rear bumper… awesome.
Noggymike

nitroracer wrote:
The dealer came and picked it up on a  flatbed today. Even MORE oil has leaked, so I suppose that is evidence that there was something still left.

I think best case scenario here is a) no damage was done and b) I get an extended engine warranty out of it.

IN that case, I'd come out ahead altogether.


I vote (A)
nitroracer

Why bother asking us the question if you've already made up your mind what the answer is?
We don't reckon there has been any engine damage.
We've recommended to get Audi to prove there isn't any engine damage ( or if there is to discover it)
I can understand your disappointment in having spent your hard earned on a special car, BUT, and maybe I'm an optimist - my take would be "at least it all leaked out during the night when I wasn't driving it". If it had been pouring out when driving it would be all over the back of the car, the low oil light would have come on Followed by the red low oil pressure light. None if which has happened.

As a parallel to this, my previous S4 dumped most of its coolant whilst parked up at Gatwick. The car didn't overheat. The head gaskets didn't fail and the engine didn't seize up. Leak fixed and car all ok.
"Lucky it happened whilst parked and not whilst I was driving"

I'm out.[/quote]

Well, for starters I am playing devils advocate. It helps me internalize my thoughts and make a final decision. Second, I am interested in all opinions and don't want someone to read just one, for example, and passively agree the situation has been resolved. So I'm throwing in the apple of discord.

At any rate, I was also very interested to see if anyone here had a similar experience, so that I'd know what to expect from the dealer. For example, there is a relatively new black TTRS on ebay that is being sold by the 2nd owner. Audi repurchased it from the FIRST owner because apparently there was brake noise, and it's Audi's policy to repurchase no questions asked, given the circumstances. Behold, a couple thousand miles after the second owner purchased from Audi, there was a recall on the front brakes (the reason the original owner heard noises).

So, something along those lines, I suppose….
marc1

I think the advise is fairly unanimous really.  It sounds like its unlikely there will be internal damage. But it seems you had pretty much decided what you wanted before posting and are going with that option.  Which of course is fine, as it's your car.  

Personally I would follow Graham's initial advise to the letter.  You want to be assertive with the dealer but not aggressive / rude and ask them how they intend to guarantee no damage to the car long term.  As mentioned I'd be very inclined to contact Audi UK directly too.  

Someone else asked if there was oil on the back of the car, which would indicate it was leaking whilst driven.  Did you check this? What was the outcome?

The oil analysis that Graham mentioned is a very good shout as this will tell how much metal was found in the oil and what it all relates to.  Ask for this early on, before the oil has been drained (whatever was left of it) and discarded.

Finally, what are they planning on doing about your stained driveway...
Noggymike

nitroracer wrote:
Why bother asking us the question if you've already made up your mind what the answer is?
We don't reckon there has been any engine damage.
We've recommended to get Audi to prove there isn't any engine damage ( or if there is to discover it)
I can understand your disappointment in having spent your hard earned on a special car, BUT, and maybe I'm an optimist - my take would be "at least it all leaked out during the night when I wasn't driving it". If it had been pouring out when driving it would be all over the back of the car, the low oil light would have come on Followed by the red low oil pressure light. None if which has happened.

As a parallel to this, my previous S4 dumped most of its coolant whilst parked up at Gatwick. The car didn't overheat. The head gaskets didn't fail and the engine didn't seize up. Leak fixed and car all ok.
"Lucky it happened whilst parked and not whilst I was driving"

I'm out.


Well, for starters I am playing devils advocate. It helps me internalize my thoughts and make a final decision. Second, I am interested in all opinions and don't want someone to read just one, for example, and passively agree the situation has been resolved. So I'm throwing in the apple of discord.

At any rate, I was also very interested to see if anyone here had a similar experience, so that I'd know what to expect from the dealer. For example, there is a relatively new black TTRS on ebay that is being sold by the 2nd owner. Audi repurchased it from the FIRST owner because apparently there was brake noise, and it's Audi's policy to repurchase no questions asked, given the circumstances. Behold, a couple thousand miles after the second owner purchased from Audi, there was a recall on the front brakes (the reason the original owner heard noises).

So, something along those lines, I suppose….[/quote]

























No.

Brake noise is one thing

A "potential" engine replacement is another.

If somebody has given their new car back due to "brake noise" then I believe they weren't happy with the car full stop and opted "out" under a technicality.
c j h

Very very unlikely you have any engine damage, getting Audi to replace the engine is a bit of a joke, and way OTT, replacing the car is in another league

The fact the oil is all over your drive means there was plenty left in the engine, you ll be surprised how tolerant an engine is to low oil, no oil is a different subject though
Graham

I also expect a dealership will have a decent endoscope.
dtwoi

oil

Well i would not settle for any less than a new engine had the shoe been on the other foot and you dropped it off with no oil on the dipstick to later suffer engine damage i assure you they would do all they could to wriggle out of replacing your engine on warranty find it laughable people say ah it will be ok but then they have not invested 50k in the car how can anyone begin to know if there has been irreversible damage to the engine i don't think some of the calm replies would feel the same way was it there pride and joy
Noggymike

Re: oil

dtwoi wrote:
Well i would not settle for any less than a new engine had the shoe been on the other foot and you dropped it off with no oil on the dipstick to later suffer engine damage i assure you they would do all they could to wriggle out of replacing your engine on warranty find it laughable people say ah it will be ok but then they have not invested 50k in the car how can anyone begin to know if there has been irreversible damage to the engine i don't think some of the calm replies would feel the same way was it there pride and joy



Perhaps some people have a more technical attitude towards the issue in hand?
dtwoi

oil

Yawn
Genius
Noggymike

Re: oil

dtwoi wrote:
Yawn
Genius












Is it your bedtime?
nitroracer

Re: oil

[quote="dtwoi:626781"]Well i would not settle for any less than a new engine had the shoe been on the other foot and you dropped it off with no oil on the dipstick to later suffer engine damage i assure you they would do all they could to wriggle out of replacing your engine on warranty find it laughable people say ah it will be ok but then they have not invested 50k in the car how can anyone begin to know if there has been irreversible damage to the engine i don't think some of the calm replies would feel the same way was it there pride and joy[/quote]

This pretty much sums it up for me. Again, my initial post was really to see if anyone has had a similar situation in dealing with Audi. I wasn't really looking for heuristic approach as to whether or not there was engine damage.

It's really not over the top or out of the question to have them take it back. They can easily fix any damages and resell it for a minimal loss. It's not a TOTAL loss for them. As I stated, I would settle for a doubling of the engine warranty.

As far as an oil analysis is concerned, I don't trust the dealer to give me the correct results in the event that its in my favor. I will see what they say and go from there, but it is completely within my legal right to have them take this sucker back (I don't really want a new engine anyway because if they can't be trusted to change the oil, imagine what would happen if they tried to swap an engine!!     )

Imagine if your loved one was on the operating table and the oxygen was cutoff for even 20 seconds… That is really how I feel here.
Noggymike

You have made you mind up.



Follow up the matter untill you are satisfied
c j h

Audi are not going to replace an engine for dumping it's oil on your drive, because essentially that's what's happened, that's ridiculous
Searider

nitroracer wrote:
Why bother asking us the question if you've already made up your mind what the answer is?
We don't reckon there has been any engine damage.
We've recommended to get Audi to prove there isn't any engine damage ( or if there is to discover it)
I can understand your disappointment in having spent your hard earned on a special car, BUT, and maybe I'm an optimist - my take would be "at least it all leaked out during the night when I wasn't driving it". If it had been pouring out when driving it would be all over the back of the car, the low oil light would have come on Followed by the red low oil pressure light. None if which has happened.

As a parallel to this, my previous S4 dumped most of its coolant whilst parked up at Gatwick. The car didn't overheat. The head gaskets didn't fail and the engine didn't seize up. Leak fixed and car all ok.
"Lucky it happened whilst parked and not whilst I was driving"

I'm out.


Well, for starters I am playing devils advocate. It helps me internalize my thoughts and make a final decision. Second, I am interested in all opinions and don't want someone to read just one, for example, and passively agree the situation has been resolved. So I'm throwing in the apple of discord.

At any rate, I was also very interested to see if anyone here had a similar experience, so that I'd know what to expect from the dealer. For example, there is a relatively new black TTRS on ebay that is being sold by the 2nd owner. Audi repurchased it from the FIRST owner because apparently there was brake noise, and it's Audi's policy to repurchase no questions asked, given the circumstances. Behold, a couple thousand miles after the second owner purchased from Audi, there was a recall on the front brakes (the reason the original owner heard noises).

So, something along those lines, I suppose….[/quote]

Fair enough. I'm back in

Does the dealer have to record what investigation they carry out?
Surely they need to investigate and rectify the problem, check oil pressure and possibly an oil sample - but this is an issue between you and them - no need, at this stage, for it to be recorded on the Audi Central computer.
The problem only becomes "visible" to a potential purchaser if you escalate this up to Audi head office?

The Audi dealer (I assume) is only a franchise after all?

When buying parts for my current S4 my local dealer had some records for the car - but only previous owners had taken it to other dealers within their group (Harwoods).
The service history from other dealers is only visible to those individual dealers as far as I can tell.
Searider

Re: oil

nitroracer wrote:


As far as an oil analysis is concerned, I don't trust the dealer to give me the correct results in the event that its in my favor.


Could easily have your own analysis done. We often get them done on boats that we survey. Costs about £50.
Pump a bit out of the dipstick tube into a sample bottle, pop in the post and results back in a few days.

Our samples go to Finnings (Caterpillar) so I think that most plant hire / service places would be able to do this for you.

Where in the country are you?  If you're near me pop in and I'll take and send off a sample.
pjbRs

While I do sympathise with the op, I'm sure it's not the first time a customer gets a car serviced and it leaks? I for one would just wait and see the outcome once the dealer has the car back, before panicking and thinking the cars a write off.
If it had no oil in it it would seize long before you got home.
Saying that, I would ask them for an extended warranty for peace of mind, if I didn't feel completely happy with the outcome.

The last time I had my audi serviced it had a small leak from the engine oil filter, plus a rag was left on top of the engine when I got it back, not great, the mechanic tried telling me the rag must have been mine? but it was put right immediately.

Years ago I had a ford fiesta van, that was serviced and the dealer forgot to re fill the engine oil, I got about a mile  then the car overheated, oil light came on and the engine stalled, it was completely seized, that was a new engine and compensation, hire car etc.

Hopefully you'll get a happy outcome and you can enjoy your car again.
nitroracer

Let me restate what has happened. The oil bled out like sieve. It GUSHED out over a 24 hour period. My guess is, the one bolt the mechanic had to screw on is gone.

This is a FATAL ERROR on their part. The fact that it didn't seize up is merely a coincidence in timing. For all I know, I could have been at the tipping point of that event occurring. Hindsight bias is 20/20.

At a MINIMUM, I will get them to agree to an extended warranty.
hiltoa

...and yet you conceded earlier that oil was continuing to leak out when the car was collected.
I would personally guess that the sump bolt was not torqued up by Audi and following the heat cycle / vibration from your journey home worked itself loose enough to allow oil to drip out. Damage would not start to occur until after the low oil warning light had come on.
All this is irrelevant to you if you are purely after getting as much out of the dealer as possible - so I would suggest you go after them with all guns blazing in as nasty and unpleasant way as you can. They will eventually bend to your will for the sake of a quiet life and you will have the satisfaction of getting the most out of this hypothetical disaster.
The only potential downside is that many people will subsequently think of you as deeply unpleasant but that may not bother you too much.
SJS

The only thing not covered...Who is paying for your driveway cleanup?  If even 4l of oil spilled out that is a real ballache to clean properly.
nitroracer

Follow UP

Well, I was driving the car back from the dealer after they "fixed" the issue, and the engine light came on. I took it back, and now apparently the dealer got Audi headquarters involved, and its a big issue. Audi is looking into it. So apparently there was something else going on…

Stay tuned…
Noggymike

Re: Follow UP

nitroracer wrote:
Well, I was driving the car back from the dealer after they "fixed" the issue, and the engine light came on. I took it back, and now apparently the dealer got Audi headquarters involved, and its a big issue. Audi is looking into it. So apparently there was something else going on…

Stay tuned…



The plot thickens then.......
denboy

Sounds like the  car is a bit of a lemon, good luck with the outcome.
St Inky

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