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pippyrips1

MRC Tuning vs. pippyrips' B7 RS4

Over the past few months I’ve become concerned by the threads relating to oil/carbon build-up in B7 inlet manifolds. I've also been interested in the threads about developing the inlet manifold to help increase airflow and performance.


As I plan to keep the car for the long haul, I wanted to be sure that everything was as it should be inside my engine as well as seeing what could be done to improve an already great car - further.


Not having the skill/experience /time/ knowledge etc to do this sort of work myself, I needed to find someone capable of doing it for me. Since I’ve been around the Audi scene, I’ve heard nothing but good things about MRC Tuning so got involved in a conversation with them around what could be done.


These conversations culminated in me dropping my car off at MRC last Saturday for a week of work, focusing on:


• Investigating and cleaning any build-up in and around the inlet tract
• Testing a ported and polished inlet manifold
• Improving exhaust flow
• Custom mapping all of the above into one neat package.


MRC wanted to approach the work as a development programme, so it was important to have an independent assessment of results as the week progressed. Surrey Rolling Road was chosen for this so I took my car there for a benchmark dyno before any work commenced where she came in at 390.4bhp.


With the maker set, MRC took the car to their workshop and proceeded to take off the original manifold, only to be confronted by quite a mess:










Although the build up looks sticky, this was only surface deep and underneath it was rock solid and baked on.


Around 10 hours and some serious elbow grease later the guys had managed to clean up all of inlet and valves leaving them good enough to eat your dinner off!:






We plan to monitor any further build up in the intake by taking off the manifold in 1500 miles before sorting the problem once and for all.


With the valves cleaned, MRC continued by fitting a ported and polished inlet manifold they had prepared and headed off to Surrey Rolling road to measure the difference, firstly with just the stock map and then by applying their own custom map.


The results were:




Blue line – Car in stock form
Red line – Clean inlet, modded manifold, stock map
Turquoise line - Clean inlet, modded manifold, MRC map


So there it was the magic 414bhp with torque improvements to boot!


Buoyed by the good results the guys took the car back to their workshop and focused their attention on the exhaust. A day and a pair of free flowing downpipes later the car was finished and ready to go back to SRR to measure the final results – here they are... 431.1bhp!





Red line – stock car
Pink line – Clean inlet, modded manifold, stock map
Blue line - Clean inlet, modded manifold, MRC map
Green line - Clean inlet, modded manifold, free flow downpipes & MRC map


At this point it’s probably worth reminding everyone SRR is completely independent to MRC and has no interest or benefit in artificially inflating these results.

The final graph shows where the car was a week ago to where it is now:



I have gained up to 50bhp iand 40ftpd of torque in places over the rev range - not bad for an N/A engine! - I love my car  

To say I am pleased is an understatement. The car is noticeably stronger all over the rev range and much more responsive than before with increased torque that almost feels like a mini turbo has been bolted on – oh and the soundtrack  

I would like to thank Lucas, Doug & Minea at MRC for doing such a great job. They are a top bunch who are true enthusiasts and will be the only people to work on my car from now on.


MRC will be launching their new website in 2 weeks or so and will be featuring my car and all that was involved in a step by step blog. I’m sure they will do a far better job than me in detailing the work but in the meantime if anyone else is interested in following a similar path, give them a call – you won’t regret it!!
bluebrakes

Lush car. I was drooling over the engine note last saturday too.
xyber

Very interesting, any idea what was causing the soot or what could prevent the build up in the future?
pippyrips1

bluebrakes wrote:
Lush car. I was drooling over the engine note last saturday too.


Thanks - you should hear it now  
pippyrips1

xyber wrote:
Very interesting, any idea what was causing the soot or what could prevent the build up in the future?


Its mostly oil and is caused by oil vapour being pushed through the inlet manifold.
Mike159

I will be looking forward to finding out a cost on this
jeffw

That is an excellent result.  You must be well pleased.

Mike159 I think you'll need to be sitting down when he tells you how much
Adam

EXcellent results there, well done to all those involved. Looks there could be more B7 owners coming back to RR meets now
Graham

I can only imagine how pleased you are. You must now have one of the best driving if not the vest driving NA RS4 in the country.

I must commend you and MRC on the approach taken and for sharing it as the data here is so much more useful because of it. Brings even more hope to me as someone that one day would like to own a B7. I hope that a cure is found for the inlet build up.

What does interest me is how much power cleaning the inlet and modifying the manifold released on the stock map - shows that maybe a brand new engine on an Audi test bed, maybe they didn't make up their power figures after all. Not accounting for the modified manifold of course, but we don't know how much power that alone  gained.

Well done. Looking forward to the new MRC website and the full write up. Would be the sort of thing that would be interting to read in Audi Driver rather than repetion on how a new set of brake pads and Miltek were fitted.
MarkB

Made the pictures viewable on this site to make it an easier read...

Good results
Andyuk911

Rob,

your original car was stock .. with the valves disconnected ??

My car peaked art 390Hp ... but the torque was above 300 from 2,600 rpm and peaks at 310 ..I wonder why my torque is so much flatter than yours? Yours is a bit up and down .. again Surrey RR ...

I wonder if my car is less gummed up due to the frequent oil changes ..
pippyrips1

Andy - the car was stockish! It did have a non res/non valved Milltek catback system though it did nothing to improve performance (could it have a harmed it?!)

I'm not sure if frequent oil changes will make that much difference. The cyclonic separators (i would love to meet the guy who named them....) are tiny thimble sized things. They just don't seem to be big enough for the job in hand!
Andyuk911

Rob .. arrrr, you had a miltek ... I am pretty dam sure that this knocks performance unless a remap is installed. I have some proof from another RS4 owner that was the case.

I assume you are on fresh oil now ?

Iam trying to get my car to the RR day, but it is proving difficult ....
Adam

So are there preventative measures  B7 owner can take or is this work going to have to be carried out every 24 months?
sonny

This thread is still the highlight of my week! great results there, hopefully this may be the "Holy Grail" to us RS4 owners!

Ok im sitting down, what sort of price you looking at? was it a head off job?
Lucas

sonny wrote:
This thread is still the highlight of my week! great results there, hopefully this may be the "Holy Grail" to us RS4 owners!

Ok im sitting down, what sort of price you looking at? was it a head off job?
Heads stay on but the job is labour intensive! Unfortunately the carbon build up and oil residue is baked on.

Send me an email with the sort of spec you're looking for and i can give you an idea of costs.

Lucas@mrctuning.com
MarkB

This is looking like quite a project, worthy of entering the Project forum

Looks like at last the B7 RS4 can make the book power

Keep us up to date with how the oil build up prevention progress's
ScottR

Lucas wrote:
Heads stay on but the job is labour intensive! Unfortunately the carbon build up and oil residue is baked on.


Tried Mr.Muscle Oven Cleaner?
SR71

Like Andyuk911, my stock torque curve was pretty flat and above 300ftlbs between 3200-6500rpm, peaking at 320ftlbs at ~5800rpm.

Anecdotally, Rob always had a hunch my car was faster than his with just the Miltek on it. That said, right at the top end it made good power and our own VAGCOM logging prior to MRC getting the car proved that.

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, on a roll-on with another local owners car which has an APS map with a Miltek, my car was still able to slightly out-accelerate it...

Kudos to MRC for the good work.
Mike159

I may be wasting my time here as I never got a reply with prices for b5 parts when I wanted them, but here goes....

How much for

1) Cleaning up the head and a map
2) As above + ported and polished inlet manifold
3) As above + Milltek cat back
4) As above + downpipes
jeffw

I suggest you either email Lucas or ring MRC who will be able to tell you.  Posting on here is probably a waste of time.
sonny

Lucas wrote:
sonny wrote:
This thread is still the highlight of my week! great results there, hopefully this may be the "Holy Grail" to us RS4 owners!

Ok im sitting down, what sort of price you looking at? was it a head off job?
Heads stay on but the job is labour intensive! Unfortunately the carbon build up and oil residue is baked on.

Send me an email with the sort of spec you're looking for and i can give you an idea of costs.

Lucas@mrctuning.com


thanks
Andyuk911

Since 246 is down ... we have two routes to prevent this ... there is seafoam and Wynn's ... we Will have some on the RR day to run a car before and after treatment ... that is the plan at the moment.
Andyuk911

Lucas

PM/Emails sent to both Sonny and Mike.

Best to email lucas@mrctuning.com or info@mrctuning.com for any quotes.
DavidT

Would an oil catch tank be a good solution for this car ?
Lucas

The car has a catch can already but it's not a very big one. We are monitoring the build up and will be testing a bigger catch amongst other things to see this helps.
Andyuk911

That is a very difficult question to answer with this engine. It may need the oil vapour, which is why it has a small system. There is a detailed PDF on the engine kicking around.
Mike159

Thanks for the PM Lucas.

Been nice and sunny all day, might get it in bits and have a look later in the week if it stays like this see how dirty it really is in there
Andyuk911

Mike,

just so you know .. a car with 3,000 miles was dirty ...

what is strange, I have not noticed any performance drop off and my car dynoed late last year at 390hp at Surrey .. which is on the button.

I can't wait to see pixs of Rob's car after 1500-2000 miles ... that will be the real eye opener.
Mike159

I will take the inlet off and take some pictures. How many miles do you recon that cleaner stuff takes to work, and where is best to get it from. I will give it a go and then take the inlet back off and see what if any difference there is. Before either properly cleaning it myself or letting someone else do it!

Anything I should look out for when removing the inlet manifold, or any specific dos and donts
ZeroK66

Fantastic post, well written, properly staged & excellent results.  Good work! )
quattrosteph

Well impressive !!  At 430 bhp or so the b7 start to interest me !!
James

First B7 i have heard of making the numbers...
RI_RS4

Lucas,

You guys at MRC did a nice job on pippy's engine.  He showed me a shot of the custom non-cat downpipes you fabricated, and you got it right with the upstream O2 sensor positioned close to the header junction.  Much better than where Milltek placed the sensor, which is too far away for ECU to do it's job right.
DavidT

RI_RS4 wrote:
Lucas,

You guys at MRC did a nice job on pippy's engine.  He showed me a shot of the custom non-cat downpipes you fabricated, and you got it right with the upstream O2 sensor positioned close to the header junction.  Much better than where Milltek placed the sensor, which is too far away for ECU to do it's job right.


Welcome to the forum
Mihnea

RI_RS4 wrote:
Lucas,

You guys at MRC did a nice job on pippy's engine.  He showed me a shot of the custom non-cat downpipes you fabricated, and you got it right with the upstream O2 sensor positioned close to the header junction.  Much better than where Milltek placed the sensor, which is too far away for ECU to do it's job right.


Unfortunately te B7 RS4s ECU does NOT do cylinder specific fuelling control, so the location of the primary O2 sensor is absolutely irrelevant.
pippyrips1

RI_RS4 wrote:
Lucas,

You guys at MRC did a nice job on pippy's engine.  He showed me a shot of the custom non-cat downpipes you fabricated, and you got it right with the upstream O2 sensor positioned close to the header junction.  Much better than where Milltek placed the sensor, which is too far away for ECU to do it's job right.


Scott, we went with the milltek downpipes in the end and all is working very well:D
RI_RS4

Mihnea wrote:
RI_RS4 wrote:
Lucas,

You guys at MRC did a nice job on pippy's engine.  He showed me a shot of the custom non-cat downpipes you fabricated, and you got it right with the upstream O2 sensor positioned close to the header junction.  Much better than where Milltek placed the sensor, which is too far away for ECU to do it's job right.


Unfortunately te B7 RS4s ECU does NOT do cylinder specific fuelling control, so the location of the primary O2 sensor is absolutely irrelevant.


Mihnea

Interesting.  That's ugly.  So, if one, or several, but not all, intake valves are partially restricted due to intake valve deposits, flow is reduced.  This would then cause the ECU to globally dial back mixture to compensate.  If that's the case, then the free flowing cylinders will lean out, since the O2 sensor is reading the average of all cylinders on each bank.  This will cause detonation, causing the ECU to dial back timing on the cylinders that are detonating.

Another thought, are you aware of the time interval that the ECU is using to modify injector timing?  Is it every crank revolution  ( about 7 ms), every 2 revolutions (14.5 ms)?
Andyuk911

This is an very interesting thread .. I like the more technical stuff ...
rhsnyder

pippyrips1 wrote:

Scott, we went with the milltek downpipes in the end and all is working very well:D


hey man - so you went milltek end to end?
Adam

Welcome to the forum rhsnyder
pippyrips1

rhsnyder wrote:
pippyrips1 wrote:

Scott, we went with the milltek downpipes in the end and all is working very well:D


hey man - so you went milltek end to end?


Correct
Tweety-s-

Hi Pippyrips!!

I'm new in the forum, I read your thread and wanted to ask you a question, I dont think you said how many Km you have done with your RS4 before you did that marvellous cleaning on the inlet and valves.

My boyfriend just got an RS4 B7 last week and we already did a Dyno test on it, the car has 23,000 km and it came out 378hp, we knew about this problem so we where not that surprised, but now we're trying to figure out how to solve it.

So please keep writing your impressions or eventualy solutions.
Tweety-s-

Sorry!!! another question,
would you happend to know if the Dyno where you brought your car has the Coast-down system???
The power that you measured is at the wheel or the calculation of the power at the engine???
pippyrips1

Hi,

My car had done 20,000 miles and the RR was a dyno dynamics setup.

The power is corrected back to the flywheel but variances aside, I would say your figure is about average for a heathly, standard car after attending a RR shoot out on the weekend.

The car is going well and topped the charts at the shootout, she is going back in within the month to open up the inlet and measure fresh build up, before being cleaned again and fitting a  custom filtering system.
Tweety-s-

pippyrips1 wrote:
... and fitting a  custom filtering system.


Interesting!!!

Could you tell us more about this.  
Mike159

Any update on this? Has it been in bits again and checked?
pippyrips1

Funny you should ask! MRC opened her back up on Monday after 2k miles - I'm on the phone at the moment so will post the pics up tomorrow when I get a chance.

The boys have since cleaned her up once more (which gives you a clue...) and and have now applied their mod which should solve it once and for all.

I get her back tomorrow so will post a better update shortly!
Mike159

Look forward to seeing them! I got rid of my B7 before I had chance to have a look
DavidT

Great project, I look forward to pics & more info
pippyrips1

Ok, So it had been 2,000 miles since MRC worked their magic on my car so it was time for them to open her back up again.

As most of you will know, part of their original work involved taking of the inlet manifold and cleaning all of the oily, baked on crap that had covered all of the inlet valves, tract & manifold. By the time they were finished all was squeaky clean and shiny :







The plan was always to open her up again after covering some decent mileage to measure how much build up, if any had re-occurred since, before attempting to cure the problem once and for all.

Doug & the team set about doing so last Monday. The following pictures are a selection of what they found:









To be honest after seeing the original pics of build-up after 20k miles, you could be excused for thinking what has occurred since isn’t that bad,…but when you consider the car has only done 10% of the mileage since…………

As you can see the valves had already started to become covered again, and if you look at the inlet manifold, you can see trails of oil that came out of it as the guys turned it upside down – it was literally dripping over the floor!

The guys have since cleaned her up once more which again was no easy task - the oil was baked on on pretty well!!  

Once that was sorted, MRC fitted a custom mod that if proved successful ( and the early signs are promising..)  will mean my car will finally be free from the buildup issue for good!!!

The plan is to put a futher 1500 miles on the car before opening her up for the last time to find a nice shiney inlet  tract - fingers crossed.


While the car was with MRC  she recieved a set of adjustable H&R front & rear anti-roll bars for good measure. Ealry observations are the car is noticeably flatter in turns and the change of direction is much better than before.

But the final mod to be done on this visit and possibly the best one done -to date - Doug removed the amber 'egg yokes' from the front lens - it makes so much difference to the front end, especially phantom black!

ufoufo

guys, does this issue affect only the B7 RS4 or does it also affect the R8 and any other model using the V8 petrol engine?
pippyrips1

Yep, all FSI to one degree or another. The R8 uses the same engine as the b7 RS4....
MilkybarKid



WTF! is that swarf???

Good luck with this, also the headlights look good there, lets see a full frontal then  
Brooner

so how's the fix going looking to get mine ported and cleaned possibly with the larger catch tank if it fixes the problem.
Keep us posted

Ta
MarkB

Has the car been back for it's check up yet?
pippyrips1

Sorry for the delay guys, the car has now been back and checked. While the fix has definately reduced the issue but it hasn't solved it 100%

I'm toying with the idea of selling the car ( fancy a change - see for sale forum :wink) but if i don't i'll continue to work with MRC so will post updates up as they come.
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