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Sambas23

My RS4 Evolution from Beast to Monster

So this is the start of my Audi RS4 thread which will maybe be off some interest to some of you and maybe not.

I have always enjoyed sharing my story with others I will do my best to keep this thread up to date with all the major works written up.

I own a 2001 Avus RS4 which when bought was and still is matt black wrapped and I bought the car in August 2013 so at the time of the purchase I had an Imola S4 B5 as well, her fate will be discussed as we move on.



So I love the look of my RS4 some may hate the matt black but I do like the look, wrapping a car is not something that I would want to go out and get done to a car as my mind always seems to focus spending on making it go faster !!!

When I bought the car it was fairly standard other than the wrap a set of 18z calipers and I think it may well have had a stage 1 map at some point in its life.

So the journey has begun with the RS but what will be the fate of the yellow peril that I have lavished large amounts of cash at and many many hours. So my S4 I bought 18 months previous to the RS. I bought her from Scotland and to be fair she was a bit of a dog when I picked her up. So 4 or 5 months later the engine was out and new K04’s went on with downpipes a new clutch and flywheel Porsche 18Z brakes S6 rear brakes and lots of other little bits and bobs like EGT’s and the like. You can have a look at the build and all of my difficulties on Audi SRS under Project Yellow Peril

So my S4 was running around 450-500bhp and I loved the way it pulled drove and all that. Then I got the RS4 which when you compare the two cars the S4 was so much faster in every aspect so for me the big hype up of getting an RS4 felt a little tarnished at that point.

So I spent a week or two trying to convince the wife that the S4 should become my track toy and we should keep it. THIS FAILED……..
The S4 went up for sale for 5k which considering I had spent a small fortune on it I felt this was very reasonable. I had people come look, who loved the car performance and all the rest of it and even took a deposit only to be told by each one they could not justify the insurance costs and the lad that left a deposit was refused insurance. Now I had some enquires from Audi SRS but nothing came of it. I had one guy offering £3500 for the car then it went to £4000 then £4000 with a B7 rear brake setup. It was getting quite silly so I decided to break the car which for me was a sad event considering I had put a lot of effort into making this car.

So the day came the S4 was stripped for parts here is a pic of her before the shell went for crushing.  



So this was a sad day when the S4 was taken away on the back of a low loader to the scrap yard. But on the plus side of things I made more than my 5k I wanted for the car as a whole in parts so the breaking exercise was worthwhile in that sense.

Moving on the RS4 was all that I was left with and the thoughts of what to do were already really flying around in my mind.


This for me is the beginning of a new project and what to do with this project…….

So I sat down and produced a list of things that I want to do to the RS…

The list of financial ruin

Loba L0750 turbos and inlet pipes
Loba Cams hydraulic 
Loba 750nm clutch and flywheel 
Pauter rods
Meyle Pistons
Loba inlet manifold
APR head bolts
Followers
Cam chains and tensioners 
034 motorsport induction kit 
034 motorsport fuel rail kit
Devilsown Meth injection 
Main bearings
Shells
Oil pump
413 fuel pump and basket
EV14 750cc injectors
Supertech valves and retainers
ARB front and rear and brackets for the rear 
Diff mount
01E gearbox rebuild kit 
034 motorsport engine and gearbox mounts
Re-bush the rear
Replace all front suspension components
KW variant 3 coilovers 
RNS-E
3” downpipes
Dual exhaust system 
Exhaust manifolds
TFSI coil conversion
Wagner intercoolers

I am sure I have missed a fair amount of the list that was initially created but I think you can all see where I am going with this.

After totalling all of this up so I could understand the financial impact it came in at over £20,000 for just parts and that did not take into account flowing the heads honing the block and all the other machine work I will do.

After several large drinks and a long sit down I began to think about the best way to tackle this situation without destroying myself financially.

So I am going to concentrate on getting components together before I think about pulling the engine. So certain stuff I can buy today and fit straight away without having to remove half the car or get a software update.

I have purchased the X34 intake from 034 motorsport and this is now fitted to the car and working well here is a pic of the 034 site with said item fitted I will try and remember to take an actual picture of mine fitted to the car.

The installation of this was really easy and the old airbox is dead easy to remove and the 034 carbon fibre shroud is relatively easy to slot in its place. The only bit I have not completed is drilling some holes for the ignition amplifier plate to be mounted and I have chosen not to as I intend to replace with the TFSI coils and I don’t really want to add holes to my RS4.



With the intake induction fitted as soon as it arrived from the states now makes the car feel a bit more responsive. My attention then moved onto the rear brakes that were completely hammered in every respect. So I bought some good used second hand discs as my intention is to go to a B7 setup soon.

I then proceeded to replace all the seals in the callipers and then build them back up with a new set of pads and the used discs.

The next thing I thought I had better get done as it was overdue was the cam belt. So I ordered a Gates racing belt water pump (with metal impellor, thermostat, tensioners, pulleys and all that good stuff.

The day soon rolled on and the cam belt task was started. This was the first time I had removed my RS4 front bumper and off course one of the bolts that hold the bumper corners up rounded off and the task of getting that out then began.

A few hours later and the front end of the car was now in pieces and when I released the coolant from the system it was more like treacle than fluid !!!!
I proceeded to then connect up the hose pipe and flush the rad out and all the pipework going to the rad and once the thermostat was removed I pushed some fresh water through that part of the system as well to clean it out.

So here is a picture of the car looking like it has been involved in an accident having its cam belt done !!!!!!!!


During this work I also changed all the filters (Fuel Oil etc and replaced all fluids including brake fluid).

Whilst all this was ongoing I had bought a brand new cat back twin scorpion exhaust from a fellow forum member that did not have the “X Pipes” and had not been fitted before.

So the day after doing the cam belt I went over to one of my friends and borrowed the ramp and 45 mins later my twin 2.5” exhaust was on and done. I must say the scorpion exhaust fits very well and does not hang down what so ever I am very pleased with the sound and the look just can’t wait to couple it to a set of 3” downpipes.

After the belt and all was done it was back on the hunt for further parts so I bought a set of second hand KW V3’s for a very reasonable price but when they arrived one of the front forks was bent to the side so I am currently trying to resolve this issue and get it replaced so they remain sat in the shed awaiting fitment.
I then bought a pair of H&R anti roll bars (new in the box) and a set of new MRC rear brackets but due to the weather and lack of motivation they still await fitment.

In-between all of this I spent a lot of time reading about meth injection and decided to take the plunge so I purchased the DC-30 kit from DevilsOwn. I have fitted the kit bar the nozzles which I intend to do very soon so I mounted the tank and the pump in the boot of the car the pump is situated in the spare wheel well and the tank is visible from the boot. I intend if I get on well with this to upgrade to the polo shaped tank to fit in the spare wheel well and remove the tank that is currently fitted in the boot.

I have ran all the pipework and wired the controller up the last thing to do is to tap the holes for the nozzles and then see how the car runs on the meth water mix. I am going for 1 litre meth to 3 litres of water to start with and I will adjust my mix accordingly when I have a chance to trial it out.

Here are some pictures of the install I performed in my car:
Really bad one but I will put up some more later!!



I have also ordered now the Loba clutch cams and 034 motorsport followers I have also sourced the 01E gearbox rebuild kit and the cam chains and tensioners.

Once all of this stuff arrives at my door I need to come up with a plan do I keep it all wrapped up and wait until the engine pull or do I start fitting these items ??????

I am now in two minds on how to approach this at the moment should I add (and buy) the downpipes fit the injectors, fuel pump and 034 motorsport fuel rails and get the car mapped and drive it until one of the turbos blow, or do I pull the engine sell the turbos sell the pipework and all that and just bite the bullet in one. I still have not answered this question myself, for me only time will tell.

Over the past few years I have learned an awful lot about these cars and how much maintenance they require to keep them in tip top condition and I now see why the likes of some choose to buy and break these great cars due to the vast expense linked with repairing them. So many times I have thought I will just get Audi to do this job for me and when I go in and ask a price it always gives me that little bit more of an incentive to go and do it myself. £2k for a cam belt REALLY AUDI !!! £250 in bits at trade price and a whopping £1750 in labour……..
Anyway enough of my going on about dealer prices. This is the first instalment of my RS4's evolution and I hope it has been of interest to you all and not another war and peace style novel !!!!
pjbRs

Nice start to your build buddy, yes the Rs tax is a killer if your not handy with the spanners.  

Looking forward to reading more....
S4Player

Great spec looking forward to seeing it! Are you going 3L? Also are you building the engine by yourself?
Sambas23

Engine

No not going to 3l thought a lot about it but have decided not to on this occasion. I will do all the build myself bar any machining work as I don't have those kinda facilities at home.

Cheers
S4Player

Excellent extremely rare someone doing the work themselves, probably saved yourself about 5k ! I'm assuming the rods and pistons are LOBA spec ones? I like the Matt black also
Sambas23

Yeah I will go for the loba rod and piston combo I have been looking at arrow rods over the pauter rods of late just looking into the pros and cons of each rod at the min.
I have always tried to maintain stuff myself and I enjoy building engines and gearboxes. In my rally days we built quite a few engines over multiple seasons
guymcc

That's a great list of upgrades and fair play to doing the work yourself!, always like seeing these threads and to see progress!

Keep the updates coming!
Noggymike

Hats off

You sum up the "B5 bug" perfectly!

M
G__humm

Sounds similar to mine really. I am looking at different turbos but overall very similar to what I want as an end result. (I'm going to push the turbos hard and await death.)
colicabcadam

from my experience go for lo600 turbos, forget the engine build and save yourself a load of cash, lo600 turbos are the best turbo for a road going rs4 IMO

been there done it, just giving advice
F12KYB

looking good keeping my eyes on this one
jcb

I like the wrap

IMO having a spare engine to work on and build up is invaluable
You will recoup the cost of the engine by selling the existing one and you will save yourself hours of work and more importantly of this is your daily driver......lots of taxis and shared rides when yours is still in bits from the weekend jobs list!!

Allows you to get things right without time pressure
Sambas23

Engine

I have thought about buying a second engine and building that but it all comes down to layout costs and plus I want to keep matching numbers on my car.
It is actually cheaper for me to buy a little van for a few weeks and I can move bits around in it as well than to buy an engine.

So I shall probably just buy a crappy old van or car and use that whilst I am building the engine. I will have everything bought before the engine comes out and also I will have organised the machining work in advance of the engine pull. My only worry will be if my heads are cracked and if that's the case it will of course add a delay to the build.
Sambas23

part 2

So here is the next instalment of my progress..

So here are some further pictures as promised of the meth installation not many but a few of the drilling and tapping of the pipework.





So I have mounted the pump inside the S4’s old polystyrene tool kit holder and I have run the meth pipe out of the boot of the car and ran it alongside the fuel pipes going forward to the engine bay. I have decided to tap the metal pipe that attaches to the throttle body as it has a greater thickness and is easy to tap. I have chosen to install the nozzles underneath so I can retain the OEM engine cover. I did consider installing the nozzles in the slipper pipes but decided against that as I would have had to weld a retainer nut on to support the installation of the nozzles.

I have now received my 01E gearbox refresh kit which is shown pictured below I am currently waiting for my 6th gear to be manufactured it will give me a 500rpm drop and I hope to collect this when I am in the states in a month or so time.







So today I went to go and fit my antiroll bars and it all went wrong from there......
So I have been spraying up the drop links for a few weeks in the hope they would free up....
My mistake ! I got one side half undone using the allen key hole as well as a spanner and it goes tight so I back it off and try again no joy so I spray more wd40 on it and then try again and with that the allen key rounded and it was game over.
So I fitted the MRC rear strengthening brackets as I had the use of a ramp so that will make things easier when I go for it on the driveway next weekend.

So in addition I have been looking at some wheel options this week for mine and I always really struggle with what to go with. I have found some Schmidt wheels but I am unsure if these are just too bling for me. I have a thing about black wheels I don’t know why but I always not really liked them and with my car at the moment it does look very black !!!
So any help with choosing the right wheels is more than welcome.

So not anything great in the ways of actual on car progress but parts are being accumulated at the min and I hope in my next update more work on the car will have happened    
guymcc

Nice updates!

Probably too late now, but I managed this on my wm install, and the cover still fits over fine..

G__humm

The anti roll bar thing happened to me. Small grinder came out and cut the nuts off.
Noggymike

G__humm wrote:
The anti roll bar thing happened to me. Small grinder came out and cut the nuts off.



Are you into self harming then?



Re ARB's
A minor issue for you tho  J
Sambas23

Nuts

Although the rs has put me firmly on the road to financial ruin I still wanna keep my nuts at the end of all this !!  
G__humm

Noggymike wrote:
G__humm wrote:
The anti roll bar thing happened to me. Small grinder came out and cut the nuts off.



Are you into self harming then?



Re ARB's
A minor issue for you tho  J


Lol you joker my nuts are fully in tact I cut the nuts off the studs.
Noggymike

G__humm wrote:
Noggymike wrote:
G__humm wrote:
The anti roll bar thing happened to me. Small grinder came out and cut the nuts off.



Are you into self harming then?



Re ARB's
A minor issue for you tho  J


Lol you joker my nuts are fully in tact I cut the nuts off the studs.




No shit Sherlock          














































































xx
G__humm

Noggymike wrote:
G__humm wrote:
Noggymike wrote:
G__humm wrote:
The anti roll bar thing happened to me. Small grinder came out and cut the nuts off.



Are you into self harming then?



Re ARB's
A minor issue for you tho  J


Lol you joker my nuts are fully in tact I cut the nuts off the studs.




No shit Sherlock          














































































xx


Poor horses
Noggymike

G__humm wrote:
Noggymike wrote:
G__humm wrote:
Noggymike wrote:
G__humm wrote:
The anti roll bar thing happened to me. Small grinder came out and cut the nuts off.



Are you into self harming then?



Re ARB's
A minor issue for you tho  J


Lol you joker my nuts are fully in tact I cut the nuts off the studs.




No shit Sherlock          














































































xx


Poor horses





WTF                    



Do you mean















































Shergar???????????????????????????????????
G__humm

Lol racing horses are studs lol. Nevermind it's late
Noggymike

G__humm wrote:
Lol racing horses are studs lol. Nevermind it's late




















Was that a decent recovery







Close































But fell at the last!!!!!!!!
G__humm

Lol oh well
Noggymike

G__humm wrote:
Lol oh well






































xx































Love ya
popdemonic

nice build James!Keep me updated mate.
Sambas23

Update

So it has been a long time since I updated this thread

Things have now really moved on in leaps and bounds since I last posted an update on this but they are now starting to gather momentum the car is undergoing heart surgery at the moment

I have since received the Loba clutch and the 034 motorsport followers I have also purchased a set of wagner 3”downpipes and have fitted the 034 motorsport TFSI coil conversion kit. The 034 motorsport front suspension components are with me as well and the coilovers will be fitted at the same time as the front suspension components.
The car is of the road and has been for a few weeks. The gearbox is off to be rebuilt with the refresh kit I have purchased but due to lack of availability the sixth gear will have to remain as it is for the time being.

I am also about to order some EV14 750cc injectors to finish up the fuelling side of things. The bosch 044 fuel pump is in the tank and running.

I have also fitted the 8 pot brakes and tarox discs to the fromt and removed the 6 pot Porsche brakes as sourcing replacement discs was just becoming a joke for the RS.

The car is running well at the moment and all the bits and pieces are all finally coming together and most parts have been sourced for where I want to be today with the car.
I have decided against pulling the engine apart and replacing pistons and rods for the time being as I just cannot justify the cost of this at present on top of all the other stuff I have bought for the car. I feel that with over 10k spent on bits now the car will be in a good place for a while and I will then have time to enjoy the car as she is for a bit rather than thinking what if…..

I have been out in one of my friends RS6 which has 750bhp and a shed load of torque and on the road I am struggling to see where you can actually use this power other than the track.

So the car now has come off the road for extensive work to begin……

The engine and box are now removed from the car and the rest of the strip down work is ongoing. The engine and box came out with no major dramas other than discovering that one of the pipes going to bank 2 EGR valve was completely disconnected at the valve end. A new pipe is being sourced at the moment I may well have to try and fabricate something to fix this issue rather than buying another plastic pipe from Audi that will crack and become brittle from the heat.

The box has been separated from the gear box and is now gone for its rebuild at the gearbox specialists I am hoping that all will be ok with this when the box comes back to me.



Whilst getting the engine out I discovered one of the intercoolers had some oil in it and once the pipes were removed it was discovered dripping out of the cooler so as a precaution I have removed both turbos and sent them to Ben at the turbo unit for them to be turned into hybrids.




The downpipes and the clutch are now removed from the engine and the new loba clutch and flywheel is now fitted in its place. The old clutch was absolutely knackered and you can see were the clutch has been slipping it has burnt the flywheel and the clutch plate.


stevieyid

Did you buy the car from Tunbridge Wells by any chance??
ScottR

Have you ditched the plan to use Loba 750's then?
david1980

Nice project
Sambas23

Turbos

Yeah I did buy the car from tumbridge.

I have had a change of heart with the 750s and decided on a milder build for a few reasons one being the cost and the other being as it is my daily drive I need to ensure reliability and a practicality  
jimbo

do yourself a massive favour and throw the 034 followers in the bin.
Sambas23

Followers

What is the issues with the 034 followers mate interested to find out
jimbo

034 lifters are too tall and don't give any relief on the camshaft, both me and a customer fitted these along with a set of loba cams late last year. mine lasted 3k before screwing the cams and the customers car not much more, everything was tested and measured and this was the root cause, we are still waiting on a reply from 034 through the distributer we got them from but they seem to have forgotten about us, me and dave are in total £3800 out of pocket plus labour, good eh.  
Sambas23

Lifters

Not good mate thanks for the heads up I think I will return them back to 034 and ask for my cash back thanks again for the heads up  
DavidT

This is a super thread

Can I move it to the 'Projects & Builds' forum please?
coullstar

jimbo wrote:
034 lifters are too tall and don't give any relief on the camshaft, both me and a customer fitted these along with a set of loba cams late last year. mine lasted 3k before screwing the cams and the customers car not much more, everything was tested and measured and this was the root cause, we are still waiting on a reply from 034 through the distributer we got them from but they seem to have forgotten about us, me and dave are in total £3800 out of pocket plus labour, good eh.  


Good thread mate, I've often thought about making a list of what I'd do given the chance but don't as I know I'll find some way of doing it where I can barely afford it.

Regarding above does that mean the cams we're fine fine Jimbo I.e. No manuf issues?
Sambas23

Move

Hi David that would be great for it to move into the projects and builds

Thanks
jimbo

the cams are scrap
coullstar

Aye but design/ manuf is fine?
Sambas23

The oil in the intercoolers has been washed out and all the associated pipe work has also been flushed through to ensure when the car is back together the intercoolers are working at their best in delivering cool air to the engine.

The car is now looking a bit sparse as it is missing its engine and box but this has also given me some time to look at all the heat shields on the bulkhead and give them a good clean up I have some high temp gas turbine thermal foil that I will apply to all of the shields to give them a bit of a spruce up and help them to operate at their best!!!

Below is the car looking rather sad at the minute


So with the box away and the turbos I have given the engine bay a bit of a clean up and put some high temp reflective foil over the exposed areas. I have also fitted some temp crackers so I can keep an eye on the under bonnet temps to ensure things are not getting to hot.

Picture after the thermal foil and temperature crackers applied



So with the engine out and the gearbox and turbos away this has given me a chance to turn my attention to the rest of the jobs outstanding on the car.

The rear suspension has been removed and KW variant 3 coilovers have been added in its place the rear anti roll bar was already fitted so with the coilovers this should really stiffen the back up. I have dropped the car only by about 10mm on the back as it will still be used as my daily drive and I do  have to be able to get over speed bumps!!!!



The front suspension has been completely removed and replaced with 034 motorsport front arms all round and the H&R roll bar has also been added. I n addition to this the variant 3 coilovers have also been fitted with new top mounts.





Jamo

jimbo wrote:
034 lifters are too tall and don't give any relief on the camshaft, both me and a customer fitted these along with a set of loba cams late last year. mine lasted 3k before screwing the cams and the customers car not much more, everything was tested and measured and this was the root cause, we are still waiting on a reply from 034 through the distributer we got them from but they seem to have forgotten about us, me and dave are in total £3800 out of pocket plus labour, good eh.  


    is this 100% the root cause of what happened

I'll have to try and dig into this, could you PM the non censored story?
Aragorn

How can a lifter be "too tall"?

Its oil filled and adjusts the clearance to 0 by itself. If for some reason it was too tall, it'd be holding the valves open and you'd have no compression?!
Bobsaver501

My cams after 5k are fine with the 034 lifters, but I'll keep a close eye on them Jimbo.
BHZ661

Just seen this thread i think the matt black is great very stealth, fantastic build thread  
okkim

Aragorn wrote:
How can a lifter be "too tall"?

Its oil filled and adjusts the clearance to 0 by itself. If for some reason it was too tall, it'd be holding the valves open and you'd have no compression?!


That is a very good question!
mikey-s

okkim wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
How can a lifter be "too tall"?

Its oil filled and adjusts the clearance to 0 by itself. If for some reason it was too tall, it'd be holding the valves open and you'd have no compression?!


That is a very good question!


Maybe it's 'skirt' of the follower that's too tall, that way it could possibly bottom out and not affect compression at all?
jimbo

With the lifters unpressureised you should be able to get a feeler gauge in between the cam and lifter then the oil would take any slack up. that wasnt the case with these andthey were hard ip against the cam lobes all the time so they couldnt spin so everything wore out very quickly. the problem on my car was magnified because i had double valve springs. the other car was totally std with only loba cams and o34 lifters
Mikse

Jimbo, if the 034 lifters were the cause to the failure why Loba cams are scrap if there are a lot of people running them including you with your 3rd set?

Who manufacturers 034 lifters?
Sambas23

project

With the turbos back from Ben at the Turbo Unit they are all ready to go back on now (By the way Ben thanks for the massively quick turn around on these and the fantastic service you have provided on these hybrids really pleased mate)





The box is finally back from refurb and certainly looks a whole lot better than it did when it went away I am hoping that all is now good with the box as it has had new syncros new bearings and a new 1st and 2nd gears

Sambas23

More fun

The box engine and turbos are now reassembled and i have slaved the downpipes on and I think the whole package back together now looks fantastic !!!!




The engine and box are now almost ready to go back into the car and I cannot wait to hear the roar of the rs4 again especially with the 3” downpipes now fitted. So as mentioned before I had a pipe broken form the nearside EGR valve I have found some rubber pipe left over from my V12 BMW and it fits perfectly in each end so for me this is the fix!!!! The only thing a BMW is good for hey donating unusual size bits of rubber pipe to the audi !!!!!

The engine and box slide back into the car with relative ease 50 mins and the box and engine are back on the mounts with the put back together task now left before start up.

So with the front back on the car now it is looking like a car again finally!!!

Sambas23

Updates

Thought I would share the picture of my old clutch I think you will agree it has seen better days!



So with everything now back together it was time for the start up the bit I was dreading but yet felt so excited about all at the same time. First flick of the key and the car fired up straight away no management lights lit up and the dread was gone just excitement left !!!
After a quick scan I had one code and could not work out what it was after clearing the code it was straight back. I could not work this out as it was related to boost pressure so I gave Ben a quick call at the turbo unit to ask if he had come across this code. He didn't even need to have a look and came up with the answer I was needing check you have plugged the the n249 valve back in. Sure enough I had forgotten to plug it in as it was hidden way back there!!! Thanks Ben for the invaluable advice during this build….

So with the car running fine and no codes appearing other than the n75 which was purposely unplugged until the car was mapped so I didn't damage the turbos.

So the day finally came and I was off to Tamworth to get the car mapped and new injectors fitted I was so looking forward to that feeling of 500bhp driving home and then it all went wrong…..

I had purchased some EV14 750cc injectors from the US and when they had been fitted they just leaked and during the injectors being pulled out they also pulled the o-ring and unknown to us a nylon retaining ring was also pulled of with it. Several hours later and Ben at the turbo unit had managed to retrieve 5 o-rings and 5 plastic caps but number 6 had dropped into the cylinder. Several hours later Ben had managed to retrieve the o-ring out of the cylinder but not the hard nylon cap. I had a go and then snapped a piece of welding wire of inside the cylinder as well so that was it head had to come off.





I am so gutted by this as I have only just put the car back together I think Ben was equally as gutted as me but with FOD inside the cylinder I was not going to risk the engine or new turbos  becoming damaged so the only way forward  was to strip the engine.

I cannot say how grateful I am to Ben at the Turbo unit for dropping everything and getting the head off whilst I was still there.



I then needed to find more injectors and quickly as Ben wants to get the engine built back up ASAP and with the injectors I had bought there was no way they were going near my engine again so I called Eddie at WOT motorsport and again Eddie what a fantastic service you provided in getting me some deka 630cc injectors for Monday again thank-you so much for your help as well.

Through all of this heartache and extra expense that I was not expecting I really do have to take my hat of to the guys at the Turbo Unit they have been fantastic in every way and I really cannot say what exceptional service they have provided to me. I wish many other companies would take this approach to customer service.

So as I am not linked in any ways to these guys I thoroughly stand by the two statements below

FOR ALL YOUR TURBO NEEDS AND ENGINE SERVICE NEEDS GOTO THE TURBO UNIT

FOR ALL YOUR SPARE PART NEEDS GOTO EDDIE AT WOT MOTORSPORT.

I am massively impressed by both of these guys when I was in a state of complete meltdown and as I have always enjoyed doing my own work as I have trust issues with garages I can really say I have no concerns with Ben working on my car which for me is a massive statement to make!!!

So just to rub salt into the wounds i rented a car to get home and they bloody well supplied me with noddy a Fiat 500l. I apologise to anyone that has one but I found this one of the worst cars I have driven full stop it wallows lacks power and is just damm ugly.

So now it is a waiting game for the head to be skimmed and the car put back together and mapped.
As always I find the good out of a bad situation south the head and cams out the car will see new cam chain tensioner and as an added bonus i don't have cracks in my head and the piston crowns look good with no detonation marks. With the scope down the cylinder you could still see the printed part numbers on the piston crown so was happy to see a good looking set of bores and  pistons
Noggymike

Bl00dy hell what a complete nightmare!

I've been following this thread and have been impressed with your hands on approach to things.

It's good you have taken the right attitude towards the negatative shite that has happened and gained some extra comfort on the condition of the engine from some of the extra stripdown works you have had to go through.

It's really great when these issues can get sorted by the forum sponsors as quick as if it was their own car.

Hats off guys!
Jamo

Nightmare! If you were buying new injectors I would have gone for the deka IV 875cc as they have a better spray pattern and < 1ms stable. They are also the same price!
HEKTOR

I didn't push the 875's as there were not available within the time frame we were working with.

Hopefully the 630's have arrived and your rs will be ready & waiting for you.
Sambas23

Reply

Hi all,

In the ideal situation of having time on are hands injector choice may well have been considered more but with the situation wot motorsport provided me with a solution that worked and is more than appreciated from my side ideals are always great but when the timeframe is 48 hours I had to go with what could be provided and was a good solution for myself again wot motor sports reaction time was amazing and the fact he was still calling me at 9pm on a Friday evening to reassure me they would be there Monday morning is great service. Ben also at the turbo unit has had the head skimmed and is inn the process as we speak of rebuilding the car right now so the base map can be done this afternoon when you take the timescales involved what cracking service from all
Jamo

HEKTOR wrote:
I didn't push the 875's as there were not available within the time frame we were working with.

Hopefully the 630's have arrived and your rs will be ready & waiting for you.


Ah that makes sense, it's a time frame thing
BHZ661

Sorry to read of your nightmare , but as you said you have got some great support there ,  
Mikse

jimbo wrote:
With the lifters unpressureised you should be able to get a feeler gauge in between the cam and lifter then the oil would take any slack up. that wasnt the case with these andthey were hard ip against the cam lobes all the time so they couldnt spin so everything wore out very quickly. the problem on my car was magnified because i had double valve springs. the other car was totally std with only loba cams and o34 lifters

Quote from the other forum when asked what lifters were used:
JIMBO » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:16 pm wrote:
stock lifters on the first set , 034 phosphate coated on the second set


?
DavidT

Moved to 'Projects & Builds' forum
Mocke

Well, you goona forget all the trouble ones the car is mapped:)
It will be interesting what power you gonna make. About your EV14s. They are better choice then Dekas 630, bc spray pattern and atomization, smoother run. And it is well known that seals that come with ev14 are undersized and should always be changed for OEM ones.
bigben143

Mocke wrote:
Well, you goona forget all the trouble ones the car is mapped:)
It will be interesting what power you gonna make. About your EV14s. They are better choice then Dekas 630, bc spray pattern and atomization, smoother run. And it is well known that seals that come with ev14 are undersized and should always be changed for OEM ones.



They were fitted with oem seals, but still didn't stop the nylon washers from fulling off.
Mocke

bigben143 wrote:
Mocke wrote:
Well, you goona forget all the trouble ones the car is mapped:)
It will be interesting what power you gonna make. About your EV14s. They are better choice then Dekas 630, bc spray pattern and atomization, smoother run. And it is well known that seals that come with ev14 are undersized and should always be changed for OEM ones.



They were fitted with oem seals, but still didn't stop the nylon washers from fulling off.


Ok, are we talking about the same thing? I was thinking about the green O-rings that comes with ev14.
They should be changed too oem ones.
bigben143

Mocke wrote:
bigben143 wrote:
Mocke wrote:
Well, you goona forget all the trouble ones the car is mapped:)
It will be interesting what power you gonna make. About your EV14s. They are better choice then Dekas 630, bc spray pattern and atomization, smoother run. And it is well known that seals that come with ev14 are undersized and should always be changed for OEM ones.



They were fitted with oem seals, but still didn't stop the nylon washers from fulling off.


Ok, are we talking about the same thing? I was thinking about the green O-rings that comes with ev14.
They should be changed too oem ones.


Ye     either way the out come would of been the same  
Sambas23

injectors

Hi All,

Its been a day or two since I last posted about my trauma of my RS4.

Well the audi is back together and is all mapped up and the 4 wheel alignment was done this morning.

So to fill in the bits in the middle........

So last Friday my nightmare began I arrived at the Turbo Unit to have the car mapped and the injectors changed to EV14's
As already posted this turned out to be a complete and utter disaster and the only person that should take any responsibility for this disaster was the injector supplier.
So with the engine stripped on Friday and all foreign objects removed form my engine Ben began the reassemble of the engine. Come the end of Monday Ben had worked his magic and managed to pull all the stops out ad have the head skimmed and returned same day all the stretch bolts gaskets and all the rest on site ready to go. I had sent Ben some bits I had at home like a new cam chain tensioner and rocker cover gaskets. The all important delivery from WOT motorsport arrived first thing as well so it was up to Ben now.

So as I waited for Ben to let me know progress he called me later on and said that the car was fully back together now and was ready for being started first thing in the morning.

Ben had put a new base map on the ECU for running the deka's so all was ready for the turn of the key on Tuesday.

Now I was off to Toulouse at lunch time on Tuesday so I was desperate to know if the car had run up ok and nothing else was wrong and then Ben called me at 11am.

The call I was waiting for yet dreading just in case something else was wrong it shouldn't be but with my current luck I wasn't quite as confident as I normally am.
I answered the phone to just hear my engine running up for the first time I was in bliss and all that worry slowly disappeared and I think for Ben this was also the case as I had properly wound him up as well with my own doom and gloom and he was equally concerned with that first turn of the key !!!!!

Sorry Ben !!!!

So with the engine running I felt a lot happier getting on the aeroplane and disappearing for a few days.....

The only other little problem was the spider hose had split so I asked Ben to order one and chuck it on which he duly did. (Thanks Mate)

So when I returned back form Toulouse Ben had been busy and car had been out doing logs and it was all organised for me to collect on Friday.

So Friday came and I was like a school kid so I drove my passion wagon of a fiat 500l back to Tamworth to collect my little beauty.

I have to be honest I was not quite expecting the results that I got with the car she is running EPICALLY I cannot believe the difference the power delivery the pace in which it gets going is amazing.

I have to say the mapping work Ben and his team have done is truly remarkable he has totally transformed my car to how I wanted it and I have to say he has listened to all my little things and how I wanted them and included them in the map. The boost comes in low and really comes in hard at 4k it pulls like a train through the whole box before you know it 140 150 160 and oh shit I need to slow down !!!!!

Speeds like this only performed on Private roads or track !!!!

I am so happy with the support and help from the guys at the Turbo Unit and I am also really impressed with WOT motorsport for there help as well this is one of those occasions that everyone pulled together and a great car has been produced.


I would like to thank everyone that has helped along the way it has really negated the few people have hindered this project and upset me by supplying me with inferior parts.

For those guys you know who you are and I will have my day in court !!!!!!


Anyway I have had the car back 36 hours now burnt £120 worth of fuel and had the best 36 hours of enjoyment ever out of my RS4.

Now some of you will say well that is that with this build thread all I can say your wrong more to come soon.

The RS is off to pace intercoolers for a week in November for a custom cooler to be made and a few other bits as well
Then it will be back to ben for a map tweak and the saving will start for some rods and rear bushes for the back end the one thing I really want to get in the next week or two is a dts so if anyone has one just drop me a pm.

I am off out now to drive my beast or should I say monster now
   
Mocke

I toldya -you gonna forgett all the trouble
So, what is the boost profile nd Power you made?
C J

Agreed! Need to know some figures for this animal!!
Sambas23

Figures

I have no idea as I have not put her on any rollers as yet and I am not sure if I will as it makes me start to chase the numbers. All I can say on how things are running I absolutely destroyed a V10 M5 at the weekend we both went for it in 2nd and by the top end of 2nd gear I had pulled a good 5 car lengths and by the top end of 3rd I was 10-15 car lengths in front still pulling hard. I think the guy regrets challenging me and after we had played I asked him if he was in full sport mode and he said unfortunately yes I gave it everything I had!!!
The map is ideal for me it's gives me 14psi of boost up to about 4k and then comes in hard to 22psi right round to the limiter the boost just does not drop off it just pulls and pulls

I have to say Ben at the turbo unit has really put a good map profile on the car
Mocke

14 psi to 4krpm?
Why would you ever want or need to have it so conservative? Turbos are not able to boost more down low? Shouldn't have.
It does not make any sense.
You are missing all the torque in the world.
What kind of soft is that?
Sambas23

Maybe you should come for a ride no conservatism here

Had an s4 running full boost all the time on k04s and this is far quicker as its set up but hey we all like different things
bigben143

Mocke wrote:
14 psi to 4krpm?
Why would you ever want or need to have it so conservative? Turbos are not able to boost more down low? Shouldn't have.
It does not make any sense.
You are missing all the torque in the world.
What kind of soft is that?



its called load, i will get more info in the next few days as i need to speak to my file writer  
Mocke

I am very familiar with mapping OEM Me7.1. That would be interesting.
bigben143

[quote="Mocke:640978"]I am very familiar with mapping OEM Me7.1. That would be interesting.[/quote


oh rite so you do tuning for a living
Mocke

No, I am electrician. But I have mapped my own RS on E85, with i believe the same turbos as OP.
I have mapped oem k04s as well. I know for a fact what they are capable of, and how too make power of them.
I am more then happy to share logs.
The tune OP is described is often used on bigger turbos and unopened S4 engines too spare rods, mainly on e85.
As you guys do not have e85, there is no point to onset power delivery that way.
Would be really interesting to see some logs, power and tq it's making.
Sambas23

willy waving

Ok I hear your point but to be absolutely frank about things I don't really care...

All I am interested in is the smile the car now puts on my face and for me this is what modifying a car is all about the enjoyment it brings after the mods and the hard work are all done.

I have done this figure chasing thing and spent thousands on cosworths in the past had them running 600 and 700bhp chasing a figure that was expensive to achieve and all I ended up with was a car that was not really what I wanted but I could wave my willy at other cosworth owners. Been there been a dick and now after growing some grey hairs I have wised up to what I want in a car and not a power graph. The interest for me sticking my car on rollers is nil I could not care less if it produces 10bhp and 5nm of torque as long as it continues to put a large smile on my face that is what I care about everyone has there own opinions and I fully respect that I also respect other peoples builds and the direction they take them. I had initially wanted to go really silly with power and put L0750 turbos on with cams and 3.0l stroke it but I am glad I did not as what I have makes me smile and makes me happy.

Don't get me wrong one day I may go for further power and go with an RS6 style turbo but today I am happy with my lot my RS4 is my daily drive and not just a track weapon one day when it is just a track weapon and not a daily drive then I may consider further enhancements.
Searider

I'd be interested to hear the theory behind relative boost at different engine speeds / loads.

Does winding up the boost at low engine speed cause problems?

I had an S3 with a poor remap that gave very high torque (300lb/ft) up to about 3500rpm but no more than stock power.  Was explained to me that it was pulling timing and enriching due to high EGTs

I don't have a boost gauge - so no idea what my map is doing!
Sambas23

boost

I really don't know the theory behind it all mate but I kinda think its like this

Before I write it I am already saying I may well be wrong !!!!!

If you bring a turbo in at say 22psi at 2000rpm it may run out of puff before you hit the top end rev range and start tailing off
But if you bring a turbo in at say 2000rpm at 14psi and then add more boost at 4000rpm the turbo will produce a more consistent power throughout the rev range. Lets face it most dyno plots shows torque peaking at 4800-5000rpm on the S4 and RS4.

All I know is all the high performance turbo engines nowadays seem to use progressive boost maps and a lot of other high end tuning companies are going this way I have a lot of friends running various toys and one in particular has a golf that is absolutely mad it is running well over 450bhp at the wheels in a 900kg shell the way this thing comes on boost and goes is remarkable but he is using progressive boost now and has achieved more power overall than he did before he had progressive boost. The car in question has had an immense amount of work performed on it and a whole shopping cart of cash spent on it!!!

I can't comment on the whole world of mapping in a technical sense as I don't have the knowledge in this field electronic trickery is not my thing!!!!!!
Mocke

The most important thing is that you are happy.
I was just curious what Power you were making as i am having the same turbos but on e85.
Those turbos are hitting 22 psi at 3500 rpm and can without problem hold it all the way to 7000 rpm with standard wg preload of 0.5 bar. Of Course it matters also that you have reasonable cooling and good exhaust.
This is all on petrol of course.
Bringing it slowly up to 4000 rpm does not do anything for them. All of it is in their efficiency of compressor map, and will not bring up the EGTs.
I would buy all that concept if you were aiming for 25-26 psi at 4k rpm and hold as much as possible to RL.
The only way for you to make any low and TQ is to have a lot of timing down low to keep car "alive" . Otherwize with that amount of flow it is not possible to make any hard TQ.
I am sure it makes great top end. Mine does as well. The curve never falls, as opposed to oem K04 that start loosing it after 5700 rpm.
I boost up mind to 24 psi at 3700 rpm and that is about 800 nm. Hold 22 at RL.
When i stamp it at 3500 rpm in second gear, it looses traction on all 4 Wheels. Like driving in snow. But that is E85. Not possible on petrol.
I have not maxed out the tune bc the E85 (which is e95 now) will swich to winter E70.
Then i have to redo the tune.

Max TQ on K04 S/RS4 is at 3300rpm
Mocke

double post
Mocke

Searider wrote:
I'd be interested to hear the theory behind relative boost at different engine speeds / loads.

Does winding up the boost at low engine speed cause problems?

I had an S3 with a poor remap that gave very high torque (300lb/ft) up to about 3500rpm but no more than stock power.  Was explained to me that it was pulling timing and enriching due to high EGTs

I don't have a boost gauge - so no idea what my map is doing!



It is all about your goals and what turbo you will choose.
You dont take k03 and aim for 23 psi.
You take k03 if you wonna insta spool, but they are dead after 5krpm.
Yes, if you request too much of turbos - come out of their efficiency, you will not make more Power - you will anly get worm air blower.
It is all about choosing the right turbo.
BTW: boost gauge is not showing the right boost. It is tool to watch things run as they should. You need logs, too se what actual boost you are having.
Mocke

double post
bigben143

Mocke your units are smaller
Mocke

bigben143 wrote:
Mocke your units are smaller


He has stage 1, mine are mild stage 1.
No major diff.
bigben143

Mocke wrote:
bigben143 wrote:
Mocke your units are smaller


He has stage 1, mine are mild stage 1.
No major diff.


You seem to be a very clever guy makes me think you are capable of pulling an engine maybe even building 1  
Mocke

Well, if I remember the only diff should be clipped turbine.
Both comp wheel and turbine are the same size. Clipped turbine should give better spool. Frankly, it does not seem to be the case.
You are free to explain this to all of oss, BC according to you we all are stupid and don't know or understand anything.
And Ben, keep it technical!!
We are all tired of your personal attacks.
C J

Mocke wrote:
Well, if I remember the only diff should be clipped turbine.
Both comp wheel and turbine are the same size. Clipped turbine should give better spool. Frankly, it does not seem to be the case.
You are free to explain this to all of oss, BC according to you we all are stupid and don't know or understand anything.
And Ben, keep it technical!!
We are all tired of your personal attacks.


Where the fcuk did this come from! Your just as guilty for getting involved and saying that!!!
Please don't ruin another persons thread.
Mocke

C J wrote:
Mocke wrote:
Well, if I remember the only diff should be clipped turbine.
Both comp wheel and turbine are the same size. Clipped turbine should give better spool. Frankly, it does not seem to be the case.
You are free to explain this to all of oss, BC according to you we all are stupid and don't know or understand anything.
And Ben, keep it technical!!
We are all tired of your personal attacks.


Where the fcuk did this come from! Your just as guilty for getting involved and saying that!!!
Please don't ruin another persons thread.


You dont see me attacking anybody - do you?
I am asking legit questions that Ben answers in his fashion which is that we dont know or understand anything.
If somebody is ruining something right now - it is you.
Did your contribute with something here?
Explained something?
Came up with some kind of facts?
No - you did not, but you are free as anybody to contribute.
Sambas23

Bun fight

Ok guys I can see that you have a problem with each other I don't really care about that.....

For me I have tried to create an informative build thread based on my experiences I have used Ben to build my turbos and map my car and in between that remove a head and refit it.

I am very happy with his work service and all the bits in between if you have not found this the case I suggest you take this up with Ben away from the forums. Ben in my opinion is a good guy that is very helpful and as stated many times is someone that try's to help people out as much as he can.

Please do not use my thread to have a pop as for me it's not really what I want to talk about on it we all have differences in life I would suggest just get over them as life is far too short to get hung up on nif naf and trivia.
bigben143

Firstly mocke I don't understand why you are so angry it just seems you are trying to get me to trip up    

But if you would like some info here goes.


clipped turbine wheels- is something we do not like doing. reason 1 it causes lag due to less of a service mass area for the exhaust gases, also due to having a less of an area the turbine wheel is under strain due to having to coupe with the extra heat which in turn will cause cracking, clipped turbines are more efficient on diesels due to the amount of back pressure build up, but then  on the other a hand a bit of backpressure is good to prevent ambient  pressure drop. ie removing a cat on a diesel can cause this any way that's a different matter.


so back to back with the turbochargers

here is some sizes, you both have the same turbine wheels but completely different compressor wheels.

mockes wheels

Inducer Diameter A (mm):  41.9
Exducer Diameter B (mm):  56
Tip Height C (mm):  5.9
Total Height D (mm):  25.7
Number of Blades:  4\4
Flatback/ Superback/ trim:  superback




james wheels

Inducer Diameter A (mm):  45.1
Exducer Diameter B (mm):  56.1
Tip Height C (mm):  4.6
Total Height D (mm):  27.7
Number of Blades:  6\6
Flatback/ Superback/ trim:  Superback


this wheel is better due to ETT-extended tip technology

this wheel aids better air flow and greater spoil low down



So remapping the reason why we map like we do is quite simple.

20psi low down- great mass of air going through the intake system will struggle to cool the air efficiently, so time its got the engine the air is worm. until the vehicle is moving at a greater speed where the air is cooler.

now at 14psi for example, there is less of a mass of air rush where the cooling system can coupe and cool the air efficiently causing a greater bang in the cylinder.

the above is the main reason we don't like rolling roads, the same mass of air is being pushed into the engine through the rev range on the rollers.. 20psi at low rpm may work really well due to having the cooling aid needed by the fans, but put that car on the road at 20psi with out the cooling how is the density of the air going to be efficient in the cylinders   this is my understanding about boost levels, I will need to speak to my file writer if you want to go deeper into mapping its self as I don't have a great knowledge on this subject

lets put things this way- you are running 24psi to get 22psi even though 24 psi is running out of its parameters and will fail due to over speeding

we are running 14psi and hit red line at 22psi form 3900rpm and doesn't tail off due to air efficiency at the correct time through the rev range  

every 1 works in different ways and it seems people like you mocke don't like different, as it isn't your way. So please feel free to pm as I feel we are now taking over this great thread
Mocke

I do not have any problems with Ben at all. I simply will take my business somewhere else next time. I have leared that much.I said what i have to say in the other thread. That is it for me. Are we clear about that?

Well, about turbos.
I have asked Ben about diff between mild stage 1 and stage 1 turbos before.
I did not get the same answer as i did now. The answer was, just clipped turbine, everything else was the same.
Well, i guess his stage 1 turbos has been upgraded.

Now i see that is a big diff in comp wheel.
Was it hard for you Ben to answer this way? It is much better btw.

With that big comp wheel, it is normal that it does not boost earlier.
I am running E85 and it makes turbos to run at lower IATs. No matter how hard i push them with amb temp of 20 degC, at redline the IATs are max 32-33 degC. That is the pro on E85 side. You do not deal with high temps. You ar able to push turbos at higher boost and have much more timing - eventually making a lot more Power out of it. I can always provide logs.
24-22psi is what you are running on that S4 with wmi with 478 hp.
K04 with RS6 comwheel is an old turbo hybrid.
I have talked to many respectable tuners both in UK and USA that has done many setups with those hybrids. Every each of them was running them at 24-22psi. Even higher at some places. 24-22 is in there efficiency, and thay need to be there to make TQ.
arotished

I had the same problem on my EV14 750CC injectors, all the o-ring "retainers" fell off when I removed the injectors....luckily I removed the injectors when the manifold was off.. Using Siemens Deka 5 875cc now.
Mocke

arotished wrote:
I had the same problem on my EV14 750CC injectors, all the o-ring "retainers" fell off when I removed the injectors....luckily I removed the injectors when the manifold was off.. Using Siemens Deka 5 875cc now.


What is your experience between ev14 and Deka875?
Sambas23

Colours

So after all the work is done and the car is back running well I had a little incident at the weekend which resulted in me cracking the front bumper and denting the top of the wing.

So now the wrap has to come of so I can repair it so the question now is with the wrap coming off it will likely peel some lacquer and as I will need the bumper re painting I am in the dilemma of should I change the colour from avus to something else comments and choices welcome !!!
Sambas23

my RS4

So as I said in an earlier post this is not the end of this thread....

So today the car is matte black and by Friday this week that will have changed I am having the car re-wrapped in a another but different matte colour so will post up some pictures when she comes back.

In other news I had to delay taking the car to pace for an intercooler build and to be fair I am now having second thoughts on this as I have just spent a fair few quid on a new genuine RS4 front bumper and I am loathed to start cutting it about so I may have to re think my thoughts on this

In further news again I accidentally found some really cheap RS6 turbos that had not long been rebuilt and just could not resist clicking that buy it now button so I now have a set of RS6 blowers that I have left with Ben at the turbo unit to do something special with  

As much as I am happy with the car today and how well it goes I know that the time will come where I want more so I have thrown all my money into the wind and decided to go down the RS6 route and the adventure of 600+bhp so I am also going to do rods at the same time to ensure I don't bend anything in my power increase.

Other minor upgrades will happen at the same time the engine is apart again so I am open to rod choices from people I have been looking at the the IE option I have also looked at Pauter but I am not sure again so all that are running in the magical 600bhp range please tell me what your choice of rods were and why....

I know the RS4 rods can cope up to around the 600bho range but I really don't want to risk a rod failure for the sake of putting in some rods when the car is apart.

I am looking to do the turbo swap at the end of jan when I am back from my travels with work and I would like to source some rods before I disappear for a few weeks.
Mocke

You won't have to do rods for RS6 turbo power level.
RS rods are extremely good quality.
You will not have any problems unless you go e85.
You can save that money . But if you have too much of it, what a hack - do rods
jimbo

ive a set of uprated rods in the garage complete with bearings, done 7k mint condition , il be advertising them for £500 when I get round to it.
Sambas23

rods

what brand are they jimbo?
jimbo

nothing stamped on them, the engine was built by dialinx
Sambas23

rods

To be fair Mocke I don't want to risk RS4 rods past 600bhp some do and have no issues but for me piece of mind is everything and with 60mm inlet pipes and the possibility within my build of going further with additional mapping I would not consider not putting rods in.

I also have given your offer jumbo a lot of thought and don't think I would want to go with 2nd hand rods due to the fact I don't know what power they are rated too weights and if the small ends have any wear I fully appreciate they have only covered 7k but for me with all the work going into mine I want to fit new again for piece of mind.
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