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ZTuned

Project Audi S4 GT650+

Hi everyone,

just registered the other day and wanted to share my project. It's a 2001.5 Nogaro Blue Audi S4 with a GenX GT28R kit.





- GT28R Garrett Turbos (.64 A/R)
- GenX Tubular Manifolds
- GenX 3'' V-Band Downpipes
- GenX Aluminum Inlets
- (2) Tial V44 Wastegates
- Fire sleeved Oil/Vac/Coolant lines
- Couplers/Clamps
- Various hardware (gaskets, bolts)

List of engine mods:

Rosten Forged Rods
Audi 2.8 30V Heads
Supertech Inconel Exhaust Valves, Springs, TI Retainers
W8 Throttle Body
RS4 Intake Manifold
RS4 Charge Pipes
RS4 Throttle Body Boot
RS4 Headgaskets
034 Phenolic Spacers
Engine/Trans 034 Density Mounts
Evolution Racewerks SMIC's
RS4 Fuel Rail
Bosch 044 Fuel Pump
Custom Fueling Kit and Tune
South Bend FE St. 5 Clutch
Custom Labree Dual 2.5'' Exhaust



Uses thick schedule 10 piping.







Fitment pics:





Most recent pics (last week):






Engine went back in few days ago and I hope to have it running by mid-november. Will post more pictures as more progress is made!
Doug

looks good

now viper can see where he should have the pressure take off nipples on the turbos!
James

awesome. looking forward to seeing some videos when it is up and running
viperbl

Haha, yeah I did notice them Doug!!!

But hey, new compressor housings when I inveitably go for these turbo's that Alex has, I need my torque back!!

Good luck Alex, can't wait to see your dyno graph ... don't suppose you have seen Gurumans yet? he's not posted it yet as far as I can see.
viperbl

Alex, did you put any kind of sealent or gasket inbetween the CHRA plate and compressor housing? I know the rubber ring that goes onto the CHRA and plate, then the plate goes onto the housing? right?
ZTuned

I think these turbos are a great match for 2.7l, 1.35l per bank. The smaller hotsides will make it less laggy than a traditional 28RS but they will still flow more than enough for a street car! GT2560R's are also very good turbos for this engine.

Full boost should come in around 4600 rpm, and built 2.8 heads will allow for an 8000 rpm redline, so the powerband is very good. GT2871R's are pretty laggy on stock displacement... 3.0L is a good match for them. Viper, I have a 3.0L crank if you're interested

I don't know if there is sealant or a gasket between the CHRA and housing because the shop that did the machine work on the turbos assembled them. I do know there is a huge snap ring that keeps it together.

I haven't seen Gurumans dyno sheet, but 583 whp at only 22 psi on pump gas is impressive! I don't know if you've seen the video of him at the track, but he ran 11.4@127mph first time out:
http://s176.photobucket.com/album...ion=view&current=f1722333.pbr
ScottR

If Guruman's car is only running 22psi, why can't you need 583whp with K04's when they can easily keep up with that kind of pressure???
viperbl

ScottR wrote:
If Guruman's car is only running 22psi, why can't you need 583whp with K04's when they can easily keep up with that kind of pressure???


Its all about the air flow, the GT2860s will flow lots more air at 22psi than the KO4's
ZTuned

At 22 psi, the GT turbo flows much more CFM (air volume -- Cubic feet per minute) than a K04 at 22 psi. The same psi doesn't equal the same power when you're comparing a turbo with much larger compressor/turbine wheels and housings.

edit... viperbl you beat me by a minute!  
ScottR

I think i'm being dense here, but...  

If engine A is going at x RPMs at WOT, then surely the amount of air used is a constant if the manifold pressure is y PSI, regardless of the turbos being used?

I wish i'd listened more in Physics!  Educate me please.  
dummi

ZTuned wrote:
I think these turbos are a great match for 2.7l, 1.35l per bank. The smaller hotsides will make it less laggy than a traditional 28RS but they will still flow more than enough for a street car! GT2560R's are also very good turbos for this engine.

Full boost should come in around 4600 rpm, and built 2.8 heads will allow for an 8000 rpm redline, so the powerband is very good. GT2871R's are pretty laggy on stock displacement...



been telling him this since february  
ZTuned

22 psi on a small turbo is still the same as 22 psi on a large turbo, but the amount and density of air (CFM) coming out of the turbo is different.

Think about a garden hose shooting water out at 10 psi. Now think about a firefighter hose shooting water out a 10 psi. They are the same psi, but the larger hose has a much greater volume of water coming out at the same psi. Hope that makes sense.
MarkB

Moved to the projects and build section.

That is some nice looking hardware. Be interesting to see it evolve
ScottR

I've just spent the last 10 minutes trying to work out holes in the hosepipe analogy, and it's only just clicked into place.

I was stuck because I was thinking about the volume of the engine intake being a constant (I was thinking more of a snapshot in time), but then it became clearer.  As RPM's increase, so does the amount of air needed to fill the chambers.

It's the rate at which that required volume increases which (along with fueling/timing naturally - but we can imagine that as a 'constant') dictates power.

Thank god for that, I think i've earned my beer now.

Thanks for the lesson!
MarkB

ZTuned wrote:
22 psi on a small turbo is still the same as 22 psi on a large turbo, but the amount and density of air (CFM) coming out of the turbo is different.

Think about a garden hose shooting water out at 10 psi. Now think about a firefighter hose shooting water out a 10 psi. They are the same psi, but the larger hose has a much greater volume of water coming out at the same psi. Hope that makes sense.


but, 22psi in any given inlet manifold will be the same regardless of the size turbo that supplied it. The turbo pushes 'enough' air to generate the given amount of pressure.
ZTuned

You are correct in that the psi is the same, but the volume (actual airflow) is not.

A larger turbo flows more cubic feet/minute of air than a smaller turbo at the same pressure. That's why a larger turbo makes so much more power at the same boost than a smaller turbo.  

There are other factors to this as well like density of air, turbo efficiency, and heat...but in general, it's the amount of volume it can flow at a given pressure.
ScottR

Try applying my 'beer logic' (patent pending) Mark.

You're making the same mistake as I was initially and thinking of the inlet as a fixed volume. With the engine static, that it true, but when the engine is running, the manifold is being 'emptied' at a varying rate.

We'll go back to Alex's hosepipe analogy. If the hose pipe is filling up a bath, imagine a baby elephant drinking from it (this is the engine at idle). It won't take much for the hosepipe to keep the bath filled. Now imagine a herd of elephants with one hell of a thirst drinking from the bath (WOT!!). In order to keep the bath topped up, you'll need a lot more water coming from the hose.  The more elephants you have drinking (ie: engine power), the more water you'll need from your hose!

Oh dear, I think i've strayed from 'beer logic' to 'gear logic' (you keeping up here DavidR?).

If you think of one revolution of the engine requiring '1 unit' of air at a given pressure, then as RPM's increase, the volume of air required to maintain the same pressure has to increase.

So at 6,000RPMs, your turbos have to work twice as hard to maintain the same boost pressure as they would when the engine is at 3,000RPMs. I guess that's why tuners map the requested boost to tail off.

And relax.
ScottR

What I meant to say was... what he said.
jimbo

wheres the screamer pipes????????????????????????????????????
ZTuned

I never thought the image of having a herd of elephants drinking from a bath tub would be used as a metaphor for turbo volume and WOT


To add on this, just take a look at turbo compressor maps.

Here is a small GT2554R turbo:



Now here is a large GT35R turbo:




Now look at both graphs at a pressure ratio of 2.0. The GT2554R flows around 26-27 lbs/minute. But the larger GT35R flows 55 lbs/minute at the same pressure ratio.
ZTuned

jimbo wrote:
wheres the screamer pipes????????????????????????????????????


No open dumps for me, the pipes are re-routed back into the downpipes. I like to keep the wastegates quiet and listen to the exhaust scream
liwi

fantastic!!! Nice metaphor used there Mr ScottR
dummi

ScottR wrote:
Try applying my 'beer logic' (patent pending) Mark.
We'll go back to Alex's hosepipe analogy. If the hose pipe is filling up a bath, imagine a baby elephant drinking from it (this is the engine at idle). It won't take much for the hosepipe to keep the bath filled. Now imagine a herd of elephants with one hell of a thirst drinking from the bath (WOT!!). In order to keep the bath topped up, you'll need a lot more water coming from the hose. The more elephants you have drinking (ie: engine power), the more water you'll need from your hose!



, brilliant  
DW

dummi wrote:
ScottR wrote:
Try applying my 'beer logic' (patent pending) Mark.
We'll go back to Alex's hosepipe analogy. If the hose pipe is filling up a bath, imagine a baby elephant drinking from it (this is the engine at idle). It won't take much for the hosepipe to keep the bath filled. Now imagine a herd of elephants with one hell of a thirst drinking from the bath (WOT!!). In order to keep the bath topped up, you'll need a lot more water coming from the hose. The more elephants you have drinking (ie: engine power), the more water you'll need from your hose!



, brilliant


Indeed it is brilliant. Lots of elephants drinking beer from a bath = lots of drunk elephants. I think I understand
ZTuned

Ok, a few beauty pics from a few months ago when I was collecting the parts (preparing for battle!)

TiAL 44mm Wastegates



Rosten Forged Rods



ARP 2000 Rod Bolts



Supertech Titanium Retainers & Inconel Exhaust Valves (stiffer valve springs also but not pictured)



RS4 intake manifold and 034 phenolic spacers



Bosch 044 drop in fuel pump from 034.



Street density engine & tranny mounts with an 034 snub mount.

DW

Sweet!
viperbl

Alex, loving those pics man
S4

very nice.............. who supplied the turbo`s


Darren
guyvert1

Jesus, what do you do for a living !!

I'm gobsmacked at the sheer scale of the work you're carrying out on your car, apart from pushing the envelope of tuning on the '2.7t' engine, the overall technical knowledge I come across on here is staggering  

I think the R/S4 will/has become legendary, the best bit being the 'better' alternative than going the jap route  
ZTuned

Turbos came direct from Garrett and the machine work was done by a shop I can't remember off the top of my head.

Before I bought the S4 over four years ago, I was contemplating an Evo or STi. The only problem is they are 4-bangers (sound crappy), look like a boy-racer, have a pretty awful interior and everyone has one!

I wanted some thing with at least 6 cylinders, AWD, turbo, four doors and subtle looks. There is NO better option than a B5 S4 (or RS4, but they weren't in the states). I love this car so much and would much rather build something different like a B5 S4 than an STi or EVO.

btw, I freelance video editing (hence the artsy pictures on this page) in addition to other job functions
James

Great pictures.
ZTuned

2.8 heads when I first picked them up:







After the hot tank, and build -- Supertech inconel exhaust valves, stiffer valve springs, and titanium retainers:






I am using stock 2.8 intake camshafts which have 8.8 mm valve lift versus RS4's 8.2 mm valve lift.
James

So clean it is even in the kitchen
rs4steve

nice project good spec impressive
AdamS4

I thought the 2.4 heads were the better ones to use ?
ZTuned

We didn't have the 2.4L in the states so they are very rare to find and expensive to ship overseas. The 2.8L is very common and I was able to pick up a set for less than $500.

As far as I know, the only difference between the 2.8 and the 2.4 heads is that the 2.4 heads use the same intake camshafts as the RS4 and the 2.8 heads use more aggressive valve lift (8.8mm vs. 8.2mm).

A good thing about the 2.8's is the exhaust port is 35.87 mm and the RS4 is only 32.28 mm. Smaller exhaust port might be good for small K04's and quick spool, but for larger GT turbos and higher rpm, the larger exhaust port should be beneficial.
ZTuned

A few detailed pics of the 3'' V-Band downpipes:





Custom V-Band turbine adapter flange:



If you couldn't tell, I love V-Band. The downpipes, exhaust and wastegates are all V-band.

A quick pic of the aluminum inlet pipes after fabrication (RS4 pipes for reference):

Teutonic_Tamer

Wow - top thread!    
loomx

As said above, looks awesome!
spen

I can't wait to see the end result.
ZTuned

Engine started today, ran into a few issues with the W8 throttle body and the Evolution Racewerk SMIC's to RS4 upper pipes. Looking to have the base tune by around mid-November.  
Cornishmoocher

An engineers Porn.

Well done man!
viperbl

Nice man some pics of that throttle body in place?

What are you using for air intake? where are they/it placed?
davidr

ScottR wrote:
Try applying my 'beer logic' (patent pending)
Oh dear, I think i've strayed from 'beer logic' to 'gear logic' (you keeping up here DavidR?)


Physics was my best an fav. subject at school ..... so are you keeping up Scottyboy......   hows yr little ephalumps going .....

Ztuned -  as rich said - some pics of the throttle body attached please dude .... wicked project - superb engineering - luv them manifolds ..  
jonnyx

ScottR wrote:
Try applying my 'beer logic' (patent pending) Mark.

You're making the same mistake as I was initially and thinking of the inlet as a fixed volume. With the engine static, that it true, but when the engine is running, the manifold is being 'emptied' at a varying rate.

We'll go back to Alex's hosepipe analogy. If the hose pipe is filling up a bath, imagine a baby elephant drinking from it (this is the engine at idle). It won't take much for the hosepipe to keep the bath filled. Now imagine a herd of elephants with one hell of a thirst drinking from the bath (WOT!!). In order to keep the bath topped up, you'll need a lot more water coming from the hose. The more elephants you have drinking (ie: engine power), the more water you'll need from your hose!

Oh dear, I think i've strayed from 'beer logic' to 'gear logic' (you keeping up here DavidR?).

If you think of one revolution of the engine requiring '1 unit' of air at a given pressure, then as RPM's increase, the volume of air required to maintain the same pressure has to increase.

So at 6,000RPMs, your turbos have to work twice as hard to maintain the same boost pressure as they would when the engine is at 3,000RPMs. I guess that's why tuners map the requested boost to tail off.

And relax.


Don't 'quite' agree with this. The inlet (CFM required) is indeed static at a specific RPM
- 10 psi is 10psi in these conditions, regardless of the turbo. Your elephant analogy
is only correct if we fail to meet requested boost (meaning that the CFM required at
the specified pressure cannot be met by the turbos). It's all to do with efficiency -
you use bigger turbos because they can flow more air (as a function of boost) higher
in the RPM range. A bigger turbo should be able to increase boost faster (once it
has started spooling) precisely because it is capable of moving more air. If the turbo
is struggling to fill the inlet volume with air, this would be indicated by a drop in manifold
pressure. I don't see this on my car.

It would be interesting to see logs from a K04 car and a K03 car running just a K03
tune (same car). (MAF, intake temps, EGT, timing, AFR, actual manifold pressure).
Perhaps someone going in for a basic stage 3 will volunteer?
Ben H

Awesome project, and some fantastic photos too. Good luck with it. If im ever in New York I hope to see it on the road!
ZTuned

I'm using the SDR 0.5X intake, same as the X1 but it is fiberglass instead of carbon fiber and much cheaper.

I will try to get some pics of the throttle body soon.
bneaves

The reason a bigger turbo'ed engine flows more at a given boost pressure is because it creates less exhaust back pressure, due to its bigger turbine housing. This lower back pressure improves the volumetric efficiency of the engine, hence the same size engine "pumps" more air. Also a larger turbo compresses high volumes of air more efficiently so the compressor outlet temps are lower, hence denser air

Hope that makes sense.......
ZTuned

Some pics of the interior:

-Status Racing Laguna carbon fiber seats (12.5 lbs each)
-Pioneer Avic-D3 Navigation
-Custom carbon fiber interior trim
-RS4 shift knob with alcantara boot








(poor pictures because of slow shutter speed)



dummi

isn't it just a case of bigger is better? small turbos is just because they didn't know what they were doing
Ben H

Like the seats.
James

Did you have to convert the headunit to a double DIN or did if plug straight in
ZTuned

Metra makes a dash kit for B5 A4/S4 so there's no custom work to fit it, just goes right in.
James

what about AC controls?
ZTuned

Not sure I understand. The A/C controls are all stock, the only part the Metra face plate replaces is where the stock radio used to be.

The S4's in the states are all post-face lift, so it already came with a double-din radio stock.

This is stock (not my picture, borrowed it):



And this is with the Metra faceplate and Avic-D3 navigation:

James

cool i have a post facelift but only a single DIN headunit. Lots of arse ache to get new AC dash panel and double din cage for me
ZTuned

Good news guys, managed to work out some of the kinks and it looks like things will be complete on time. Planning on breaking in the engine next week, and if no issues come up then it'll go in for a custom tune on pump gas. Race gas tune most likely to come after the winter.

As usual, will post any updates here. Should have new pictures soon!
loomx

Sweet cant wait!
terrybullwon

Looks like a great project!
ZTuned

Car is driving today!!

She was strapped to the dyno today for the initial engine break-in. I'll be driving her around next week to finish the break in, then the following week will be the pump gas tune if all goes well.

Need fabricator to add a V-band to the end of my catback exhaust and then I need to install a CF hood I have.

viperbl

Good job Alex!!!

Best of luck bedding in, I know what its like! Just put on some soft music, no big band rock tunes or anything!
ZTuned

Piston rings are now set after a dyno run. It read 280whp @ 8psi at 5500 rpm.  

Changing oil and fixing a coolant leak.
rik

Watching this closely...
Ghost

Great job Alex, do you have any photos of the engine built up, maybe on another site?
ZTuned

Unfortunately no pics were taken while the engine was being built. The engine sat at the machine shop for literally three months because they were so busy this summer.

Not much to it though, just cleaned out the bores, re-used stock pistons, installed Rosten rods and had the crankshaft re-balanced. Still a 2.7L, just forged rods and built heads.
Ghost

Cheers no worries.
ZTuned

Little update. Removed some parts and wastegate because some hoses need to be shielded from the wastegate tubes. After this, catback connection needs V-Bands welded on and then it's time to break it in on the street! Engine has already been through a few heat cycles on the dyno to set the piston rings.







cjk

Lookin great Alex! Awesome work bud...lookin forward to tuneage results  
viperbl

sweeeeeeeeeeet man!

Best of luck on the road dude!

Not sure if I asked already, but what size of turbine housings are you using? AR?
loomx

Thats an awesome place for the meth injection tank. Where did you get that?
Graham

Show us yours Richard
viperbl

Graham wrote:
Show us yours Richard


PMSL, I will take a pic later to show you how to do it on a budget
Graham

The credit crunch meth tank.
ZTuned

Turbine A/R is .64

Meth tank was sourced by the shop, I can find out where they got it in a little bit
viperbl

Cheers, thats the AR I am putting in now, I hope it helps!

Don't laugh too much at my meth kit  
buzzard

lookin good rich.
I'm not laughin at all!!!

If my S went as well as yours mate i'd be laughin at every one else!!!

keep up the good work.
loomx

Tee hee, I though the pump was supposed to be below the tank?
ZTuned

I like the tie-down straps

My pump is tucked away so I can still fit a full size spare in there.

How soon do you think you'll have the new setup up and running? The smaller AR will really help with spool, but if you want the best response with 2871R you should bump displacement to 3.0L... or get 28RS which would still put down mid-500 wheel.
viperbl

Lol, cheers Paul! have a laugh, I do!

Oh, aye, so it is (meant to be lower!) It used to be, but I moved it! haha, well, it still worked ... plan is to re asses that over the next couple of weeks, need something better!

Hopefully back up within the next 3 weeks Alex, just waiting on the new turbines coming from Canada then engine back in! ... hmm, well, 3L will need to wait and if the new AR's do not work it will be 28RS like you next year ... I will be watching your results closely

We need to maybe set up a new FATS like I was tallking to Doug about higher up the rev range so we can get an idea of how quick our setups are since dyno's from both sides of the water don't seem to be very similar ...
buzzard

higher up the rev range

now you are showing off rich
ZTuned

The Porsche turbo guys over here do 60-130 mph, which would be doable with just one shift when revving out to 8000 rpm  

http://www.6speedonline.com/forum...-4-mile-60-130-mph-standings.html

Would be a much better match then just regular FATS 60-90 mph.
viperbl

ZTuned wrote:
The Porsche turbo guys over here do 60-130 mph, which would be doable with just one shift when revving out to 8000 rpm


Lol, 60MPH in 3rd is 4500 rpm (in my rs4 box), this new AF ratio turbine housing had better work, at 4500 rpm at the moment I still have vacuum !LOL!

But I agree, actually a better way of doing things ...
ZTuned

viperbl wrote:
ZTuned wrote:
The Porsche turbo guys over here do 60-130 mph, which would be doable with just one shift when revving out to 8000 rpm


Lol, 60MPH in 3rd is 4500 rpm (in my rs4 box), this new AF ratio turbine housing had better work, at 4500 rpm at the moment I still have vacuum !LOL!

But I agree, actually a better way of doing things ...


It will definitely help a whole lot. I think from your logs there was 7-8 psi @ 4500rpm, but I don't know which gear it was in. With the .64 AR, you should see a lot more boost down low... got my fingers crossed for you!  
ZTuned

Exhaust is installed with V-bands, heater hose and power steering line wrapped with fiberglass sleeving. Had to get a new set of lug bolts.

Car hits the road in 24 hours to begin a 500 mile break-in this week, and then it's back to the dyno for the tune!

I'm knocking on wood the road break in goes well without any major problems that could delay the process!
viperbl

Crossed fingers here Alex, hope all goes well mate
ZTuned

Driving car today!!!!!!

The new suspension, control arms, motor/tranny mounts makes the car feel brand new again. Feels tighter than when it had 32k miles on it

Running off small wastegate springs (8-9psi) and extremely low timing for the break in (can still go WOT, it was broken in a lot on dyno), no N75 installed now.

Will try to get some videos soon, but N75 will be installed and tune comes friday or saturday. Will be around 25 psi.
James

Excellent news Alex, looking forward to seeing the vids.
viperbl

Sounds good Alex, I am keen to see the spool up logs
ZTuned

Right now the car only sees 8-9 psi. The turbos seem very responsive transitioning into boost, I can spool lots in the 2k rpm range.

The strange part is the temporary break-in file that I'm running. I will have the 8-9 psi in the 3000 rpms which is full boost on these wastegate springs for now, but you really feel little power because it is running hardly any timing at all. However, once the needle sweeps past 5000 rpm, it's like V-Tek kicking in (joke!!), but it really pushes you back into the seat for the really little boost!

I would say it's making more power than Stage 2+ way up top, which is pretty cool because it's running the same boost as a stock S4 with no chip. I can't wait to feel 25 psi.

The car is holding up great so far, I've already made a long trip to New York City with very bumpy roads and vibrations... no funny mechanical problems, still very solid.

The only issue is my steering alignment is very off because of the new control arms, so I will get it aligned tomorrow. I'm pushing really hard to get it tuned Friday or Saturday -- if I can't, the next opportunity will be in late december!
viperbl

Alex what are you doing writing this post!! (Although we appreciate it!!) you should be out driving getting the miles on it for tuning!!!

9psi @ 3k, hmm, I am jealous at that dude!

Yeah, get it aligned, I wasted a pair of front tyres because mine was not tracked after my rebuild

Good luck for the weekend
loomx

9psi @ 3k... Hmm... Me likey, Me likey very much
jimbo

better than rich 0 psi at about 6ooo rpm.
viperbl

jimbo wrote:
better than rich 0 psi at about 6ooo rpm.


Don't make me tell that hamster story Jim!!
loomx

Hehe, does it involve a hamster and a tube?
viperbl

loomx wrote:
Hehe, does it involve a hamster and a tube?


Also a naked flame he said, but thats all I am saying, see what you made me do now!!
loomx

ARMAGEDDON!
jarv

loomx wrote:
ARMAGEDDON!


Thanks for bringing this little gem back into my life:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Jt_g10Jug

ZTuned

I will do some logs tonight to see exactly when boost is coming on. I believe spool up will be even better once the N75 valve is installed and a normal timing curve is used.

On the highway in 6th gear, cruising at about 2500-2800 rpm I see 5 psi if I go WOT. I will try to get a video up tonight and a boost graph.
viperbl

I just checked my logs, I made

9psi @ 4400
14psi @ 4800
20psi @ 5700
23psi @ 6200

:O, shocking, do not really have logs below 4k!! lol
jeffw

Rich....mine makes 28psi at 3600RPM !!!!!!
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