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Doug

Project MRC S4

sooo - time for the S4 to have a bit of TLC and a bit more power.

stage1 - which is commencing in the next 2 weeks and will take the next 2 months.

Uprated Rods
Inconel Extreme Tubular exhaust manifolds
poly bushes all round
Poly engine'gearbox mounts
poly rear diff mounts
carbon propshaft
Ali subframe bushes
4 pot 360mm rear brakes
RS6 Stage 2+ Turbos
Stripped interior - no dashboard, no doorcards - possibly strip all soundproofing off floor,etc
twin plate clutch
Rear Brace bar
Launch control
Remove aircon - move PS pump to arcon position
large Water rad
Aux water rad
larger oil cooler
battery relocated
lighter wheels
RS4 ali struts
middle silencer.
ESP Lightweight pulleys

stage 2 is more extremem lightweight and more power depending on what we get out of stock heads.

stage 3 is race spec,rollcage, etc(so heavier) ready for time attack
spen

Wow!  Sounds like you're building a monster....

Can I ask why you're moving the PAS pump to the aircon compressor location?
James

using the same engine? Thought you were going to mid mount it this time around
James

where are your old turbos
grizz

Cool ,This will be fun to watch .
Doug

I forgot - NOS for the 1/4 mile - mihnea won't let me use it for top speeds - but we will see....

turbos will be reconned and available for sale.

moving the PAS to move weight lower down
S4

RS6 Stage 2+ Turbos ..  what sort of mods do these have?


Darren
rik

And what sort of boost levels, from where in the range?
AdamS4

 

What about suspension ?

Not going to use 2.4 heads ?
Adam

Awesome Doug, looking forward to seeing tis project in more detail, especially the stripping of the interior

Worthy of a tread in the projects and builds section, eh mods??
MarkB

Adam wrote:
Worthy of a thread in the projects and builds section, eh mods??


YES
Adam

That was quick mate  
MarkB

The thread will need lots of photo's though
H8CAK

A20 LEE

Re: Project MRC S4

Doug wrote:

Rear Brace bar



are you making this yourself or are they readily available?  Fitted one to my corrado and it was one of the best mods for the money i've ever done.  Makes a massive different to the handling and weight transfer exiting a corner.
buzzard

doug--are you thinking of a race spec car building dept in the next unit????

this is a serious build list!
James

Re: Project MRC S4

Doug wrote:

s
Inconel Extreme Tubular exhaust manifolds

holy feck. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$44
Doug

For now the engine will stay with S4 heads unmodified - we know what the turbos do on ported 2.8 heads so we can compare to stock S4 heads. I will use rs4 inlet cams though. i have a set of s4 heads with etremem porting to mate to rs4 inlet mnaifold and these heads have stainless and inconel valves with lightweight stronger springs.

The suspension is ohlins remote reservoir coilovers - but the rear are getting modified for more travel when super low.

the rear brace will be welded into the rear suspension struts - there is not really a nice place just to bolt one in.

I'll start taking pics tomorrow of some nice inconel manifolds - turbos. the turbos are full rs6 stage 2 with extra porting and polishing, and lightweight shafts.

I have 2 gearboxes - one S4 box with a long 6th and one rs4 box.

Boost wise - hard to say what we will run with the S4 heads - i run 28psi to 26psi at redline just now so i would hope to run a bit more but these turbos are more efficient so even at the boost i run just now it will flow more.
grizz

Your a sick man doug , You need to get some help ......
musty

Is that all and i thought it would be something special    Inconel mani's ha,  got to be the best thing on that car as i have a pair too
ScottR

I don't even understand what half of that stuff is Doug, but it sure does sound exciting.

So now you're going to have two track toys.  Are you going to get something a bit more sensible for the commute?
ZTuned

Inconel manifolds?  

Can't wait to see some pics.
viperbl

Doug, sure you don't want some Garretts??

But really, wanna see the results of this ... are you gonna get some scales? my guy out here has some corner scales and mine came back at 1602 with low tank of fuel ... I kept meaning to get a spreadsheet of weights etc ...

So, with the inconel stuff does this mean you can run higher EGT's ??
loomx

Is the engine going to still be a 2.7?

Sounds like its going to be one hell of a beast!
davidr

Sounds a beast Doug, what does this mean as its a stage1 ...? where does that leave all us "midly tuned" dudes   ... stage .5/.25 ....?
buzzard

looks like santa is good to MRC.......

presumably - remote resovoir coilovers are to proportion weight away from its current position to give unsprung weight.

Is inconel a make or a spec...???(excuse my ignorance)
and why are these better mani's than the ceramic coated MRC ones?
musty

inconel is a type of metal light weight and strong i have a set of these manifolds they are MRC manifolds but much better the workmanship is amazing and you can see that they will flow very well with very little restrictions
jeffw

Inconel was used for the skin of fhe Bell X15 ....which holds the air speed record for rocket powered aircraft at 4520mph....
viperbl

So Inconel is used here for better, less restrictive air flow rather than dealing with higher temps?
Doug

still a 2.7

the stages are my stages of getting the car to a racecar level.

not going garretts - i got a proper size one on my s2!

inconel is more robust at high temperatures so less stretch, less likely to crack with thinner walls  - with thinner walls there is more volume inside. these manifolds have a proper collector with a point in the middle.
viperbl

Doug wrote:
not going garretts - i got a proper size one on my s2!


Good reply

Why you sticking with 2.7 and not going to 3L? spool up and low down torque??

Carbon propshaft ... custom made or can we get these now for our cars? how about the halfshafts? These are things I am starting to worry about snapping ...
Doug

the stainless manifolds weigh 4.2 kg each - the inconel ones are 3.8kg for the pair.
James

No need to ceramic coat then Doug?
Doug

i am sticking with 2.7 for now to see what can be done at 2.7 then at a later stage we can go 3 litre.

the carbon prop is on the car just now - and the driveshafts are in development. These will be available early next year.
Doug

you ceramic coat them to keep heat(energy) in the manifolds so you get more energy at the turbo. They will be coated in one of the next stages of build.
viperbl

Doug wrote:
the carbon prop is on the car just now - and the driveshafts are in development. These will be available early next year.


You got my number
musty

dibs on your aircon system pipes from the bulk head to the rad and dryer and plus the rad and dryer please..

So this is why your on a diet LOL
Doug

no point making the car lighter if the driver is a fat b45t4rd.

you can have all the aircon bits.
musty

Doug wrote:
no point making the car lighter if the driver is a fat b45t4rd.

you can have all the aircon bits.


None truer word said.

cheers pal put them in the musty corner and i will collect also the pipes from the aircon pump to the dryer and rad. do you need the ally hub got some coming in.
Doug

got a pair of ally struts - thanks
davidr

I knew it was your race stages Doug ..... jus being a silly for a change -  
Do you have yr set of rear brakes up for grabs then or is it component upgrade..? as Ithink I will be happy to take them away from you  
Doug

i'll have a set of b7 rear brakes for sale when hte 4 pot kit is ready for mine.
viperbl

What suspension you gonna use??

Are you going to use that little American device for launch control and WOT changes??
MarkB

Doug wrote:
inconel is more robust at high temperatures so less stretch, less likely to crack with thinner walls  - with thinner walls there is more volume inside. these manifolds have a proper collector with a point in the middle.


Depress me... How much do they cost?
viperbl

I recon this is gonna be a good thread, MRC are doing like what F1 do for the normal car! Paving the way for all these goodies!
davidr

Doug wrote:
i'll have a set of b7 rear brakes for sale when hte 4 pot kit is ready for mine.


Cool - i will have a chat with you soon then ..  
Doug

viperbl wrote:
What suspension you gonna use??

Are you going to use that little American device for launch control and WOT changes??


i got the stasis/ohlins on the car.

what american one? there is a cheap nasty one but that is just a lower rev limiter.

I was going to use the racelogic launch control. mihnea can map cars for WOT changes but when we tried doing mine i don't like the feeling of keeping my foot to the floor on wot changes - just feels wrong to me.

I am also going to run with a locked centre diff - then go for the LSDs for front and rear. I want to run the car in 2wd/rwd at some point next year.
aposegil

damm your not messing about this time

glad to hear this is finaly going ahead.
viperbl

This one that jcb and loomx mentioned http://www.npcompleteperformance.com/wotbox

I know what you mean about WOT changes, I did it last year in the hill climb here, but without any kinda ignition retard so just hit the limiter, did not feel right but I dare say helped a little ...

The 4wd and 2wd thing, I know this scooby driver out here that had an adjustable centre diff in the car, he used to launch the car in 50/50, when he changed to 2nd gear he would follow his hand back after the change the change it 80/20 or whatever the max to the rear was ... max traction on launch then max hp to the driving wheels ...
Doug

that box is not launch control - it is just a low rev limiter
viperbl

Doug wrote:
that box is not launch control - it is just a low rev limiter


Does it not cut the ignition for set intervals ? I thought this was the way to do it?
spen

depends what you're after launch control wise.  I did a custom routine, not map, for a subaru ecu and the logic wasn't any more than a rev limiter by virtue of ignition retard and cutting one cylinder.  The retarded ignition was hell on the EGT but good for reducing lag.  All for about 40 bytes of opcodes.
loomx

With flat shifting being mapped into the ecu, I take it you can use it only if you want to? for example at a drag strip?
Doug

is that box not just not setting the initial launch rpm limiter - i cannot see where it says anything about calculating slip through the revs as the car is moving?
spen

how can anything work that out when you've got two LSDs?  all the wheels will be spinning at the correct rate for the given engine rpm?
bluebrakes

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-vq5U5Yl9Ps&feature=related

An example of WOT box being used. I know its a skoda.
Doug

spen wrote:
how can anything work that out when you've got two LSDs?  all the wheels will be spinning at the correct rate for the given engine rpm?


you got me on that. i have no experience of launch control or the aftermarket stuff.

the trouble with my car and launching was you have to modulate in 1st and 2nd otherwise it just spins up - especially in the wet.
spen

I've tried working out the function of delta rpm / delta time to work out a max rate of engine acceleration.  If it's exceeded then the wheels are spinning or the clutch is disengaged.  

The crude lower rpm limit, or partial engine cut worked well enough...

What about a lower boost target in gears 1 and 2?
viperbl

spen wrote:
I've tried working out the function of delta rpm / delta time to work out a max rate of engine acceleration.  If it's exceeded then the wheels are spinning or the clutch is disengaged.  

The crude lower rpm limit, or partial engine cut worked well enough...

What about a lower boost target in gears 1 and 2?


Could you not make use of the wheel speed sensors to detect slippage?

Not a bad idea about the lower boost setting in a couple of lower gears ...
spen

and how'd you do that on a car where all four wheels are locked together?  They all say the same pulses per second.....  spinning or not, they'd read the same....
Graham

spen wrote:
how can anything work that out when you've got two LSDs?  all the wheels will be spinning at the correct rate for the given engine rpm?


What LSDs?
viperbl

spen wrote:
and how'd you do that on a car where all four wheels are locked together?  They all say the same pulses per second.....  spinning or not, they'd read the same....


They won't be that locked will they? locking center diff but the rear and front wheels will spin a different speeds if they loose traction, the LSD will keep them going but there will be a difference in speed will there not be?

What are you calculating this for? To reduce power if wheels are slipping?
James

loving this thread already.
spen

Doug wrote:
viperbl wrote:
What suspension you gonna use??

Are you going to use that little American device for launch control and WOT changes??


i got the stasis/ohlins on the car.

what american one? there is a cheap nasty one but that is just a lower rev limiter.

I was going to use the racelogic launch control. mihnea can map cars for WOT changes but when we tried doing mine i don't like the feeling of keeping my foot to the floor on wot changes - just feels wrong to me.

I am also going to run with a locked centre diff - then go for the LSDs for front and rear. I want to run the car in 2wd/rwd at some point next year.


@ Graham: The bit where Doug said running a locked centre diff and two LSDs

Rich, depends on the LSDs I guess.  From the rest of the car I don't think they'll be comfort spec!  

I'm sure Doug'll think of something...  

I guess on the ME7.1 you'd close the throttle a little if wheelspin was happening?
jeffw

944 Turbos run reduced boost in 1st and 2nd gear so that you can actually go somewhere
Parptoot

Have a read of this - http://www.racelogic.co.uk/?show=..._Control-Technical-Launch_Control

This is widely used in the states on masive BHP vipers and the like, I'm sure that when used on the four wheel drive system it will have the same effect.
buzzard

is the S4 ecu able to cut cylinders (coil packs) on command from the wheel sensors due to slip??

this would reduce torque enough to regain traction with no loss of boost.
Doug

s4 ecu cannot do launch control.
satans child

spen wrote:
how can anything work that out when you've got two LSDs?  all the wheels will be spinning at the correct rate for the given engine rpm?


you will need to log the input shaft clutch slip and prop speed....

try this its the same logger im useing... you can also log individual wheel slip and suspention travel, for ultimate traction..

http://www.racepak.com/Components/V300SD.php
viperbl

satans child wrote:
try this its the same logger im useing... you can also log individual wheel slip and suspention travel, for ultimate traction..

http://www.racepak.com/Components/V300SD.php


that looks nice!
rs4steve

looks like its gonna be a top project ,shall be following with interest  

happydays
sparkyvw

sounds good doug.You going to be at gti inters next year again? im also think about doing time attack next year in my new s4 that im building.
ZTuned

The WOT box actually does make some boost bouncing off the lower redline. Here's some S4 footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL65lP2iLmQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQOJvT8hhqE

But I don't think it's the best solution for your set up.
Doug

engine and box out

aircon compressor, dryer, condensor and hoses under the block = 15.5kg = binned
musty

what do you mean binned hope they are in a corner for me to collect
Doug

in your bin of parts....
musty

thank you
viperbl

Just weighed the carpet, 12.5kg ...
Adam

Doug wrote:
engine and box out


Never seen you move so fast mate!! Is this going to be ready for the Jan track day then?
ZeroK66

This is sounding awesome!
buzzard

Any chance of little dave doing a photo log of the project ???
Doug

our stage 1 clutch is still in good condition after the last 15 months of abuse.

battery and tray = 19kg so i will be relocating to the middle of hte car and using a smaller battery.

the abs controller only weighs 6 kg but is getting relocated to where the battery was. this is just to free up room on the passenger sid to fit another cone filter and dual mafs.


viperbl

My caterham battery is 8kg doug, and I was told that it was a lawnmower battery, so should be a lot cheaper than some LW car ones. I also used it on my car for a few weeks with no trouble.
Doug

it will be in the car though - so it cannot leak - anymore info on it?
AdamS4

Might as well give it a good clean while its all out
viperbl

Doug wrote:
it will be in the car though - so it cannot leak - anymore info on it?


I will get some data off my caterham battery, but I've had this one in my caterham for a couple of years now (well since I bought it) and had not trouble or leaks and I as you may guess, give that car some stick as well!
dummi

Doug, check out batcap they're about a 1/4 the size of the standard battery and are solid state so don't leak, ran my audi from one for over a year no problem! and lots of volts no problem!
ZeroK66

Hi Doug, can you catalogue each item and its weight (which you seem to be doing already) and publish this when done?  A before and after weight of the car be useful - alhtough may be a bit late for that?
viperbl

No data on it, I will investigate ...

some pics anyway



Doug

it will be getting a good clean while out - i was thinking of getting the engine bay and ineterior painted black at the same time.
Doug

stock front bumper weighs 12.5 kg with no fogs.

my bumper weighs 8.5 kg - but i am going to get rid of more or the weight in that.

I am aiming to get over 200 kg off the weight of the car and as much of the weight at the front moved to the middle.

i've got a tfsi S3 twin fan module to replace the viscous fan and electric fan.
quattronutter

going to use lexan windows and dump all the motors too?
Doug

i'll do that later - just pulling interior out now
S4

Wheels, rotational weigh = double.  So something like OZ ultra/super leggra are around 8kg.  what the standard wheels are around 14Kg I think.


Darren
Doug

Interior is coming out.

most of the time is working out what looms can come out.

the metal dash part will stay, heater and windscreen and centre vent will stay.

Doug

S4 wrote:
Wheels, rotational weigh = double.  So something like OZ ultra/super leggra are around 8kg.  what the standard wheels are around 14Kg I think.


I expect my b7 reps are even heavier than stock. I am considering the OZ - the only downside is i know of 3 cars that have cracked those wheels. I am on the lookout for light 18s so any suggestions?
viperbl

Looking good Doug!!

Btw, did you find that little plastic seat runner??? lol
Doug

Found that little plastic runner so no more rattly/pita to move seat. im wondering whether to go for some more hugging seats now!

Time for the heatgun to remove all the soundproofing! Going to cut a lot of brackets off the metal dash and i will cover the metal dash in alcantara so no sharp edges or reflections.

Thanks to ollie for helping ripping it to bits - now we have to try and fit all the facelift bits in a prefacelift.

Starting to think about welding the rear doors in and removing the inards of the doors
ScottR

How about the sub 3kg wheels posted up in the 'Dymag' thread??  

Paul from the 'Dymag' thread wrote:


I saw these in the AW link.



A Japanese company Weds Sport has manufactured the first full carbon fiber wheel. This carbon fiber wheel was manufactured using a Dry Carbon Fiber technique and was unveiled at this years Tokyo Auto Salon show.

The weight of one wheel is 2.76kg (6.08 lbs)!
buzzard

Thanks for the pics doug.
its coming along nicely.

are you going for single wiper blade across the whole screen and does anyone do plastic wings???
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