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viperbl

R&D continues …

While I take a step back to decide on the next big step up I am going to rebuild the beast in form of this …

S4 block, wossner 8:1 pistons, Pauter rods, S4 heads, S4 cams, 034 retainers and springs. I will be using my current turbo setup, with GT2871R’s, little to no other changes …

So, place bets on spool up rpm … at the moment its 1 bar @ 4k and 1.9bar @ 5.1k

Of course not going to have the same top end as before, and certainly won’t be revving that high, but for the time being it might be interesting to see the comparisons … and hopefully get me running again in time for good old ADI

Any other suggestions on this “side step” build welcome
H714DHG

I reckon with s4 heads and cams spool up will be about 300 rpm earlier. Sounds like it will be a good setup. No need to rev it to 900000000000000rpm to get the power. Get those manifolds sealed up and it will be a sweet setup.

Luckily the trackday is before the evening drinks!
loomx

Sounds good, you still running a single 3inch zorst?
viperbl

loomx wrote:
Sounds good, you still running a single 3inch zorst?


Yea, still single 3 inch ... middle box gone tho, will need to do some noise tests, hope its ok for ADI ...
MarkB

Should be really interesting to see how it goes.

One bottle neck will be the RS4 inlet going onto the S4 heads. Unless you get some staggered phenolic's?
loomx

Thats a good point. I still cant believe how much power you got with a single 3 inch exhaust!
viperbl

MarkB wrote:
Should be really interesting to see how it goes.

One bottle neck will be the RS4 inlet going onto the S4 heads. Unless you get some staggered phenolic's?


So the transition port spacers allow for a more gentle change in port size and no rough edges??? hmm, let me start a new wish list on 034! :p

My other problem is going to be turbo oil feed pipes, I spent lots getting the feeds adapted for RS4, now I will have to get some more for the S4 ... anyone got any pics of the S4 oil feeds on the block??
MarkB

loomx wrote:
I still cant believe how much power you got with a single 3 inch exhaust!


It's the main reason I'm keeping mine. I might make the middle box removable because it sure is louder with out it   and I'd want to be able to tone it down again.
viperbl

MarkB wrote:
loomx wrote:
I still cant believe how much power you got with a single 3 inch exhaust!


It's the main reason I'm keeping mine. I might make the middle box removable because it sure is louder with out it   and I'd want to be able to tone it down again.


hmmm, not a bad idea, while mine is off the road it might be worth while trying to do the same ...
MarkB

viperbl wrote:
MarkB wrote:
One bottle neck will be the RS4 inlet going onto the S4 heads. Unless you get some staggered phenolic's?


So the transition port spacers allow for a more gentle change in port size and no rough edges??? hmm, let me start a new wish list on 034! :p


You could open out the leading edge of the S4 inlet ports?
MarkB

viperbl wrote:
MarkB wrote:
loomx wrote:
I still cant believe how much power you got with a single 3 inch exhaust!


It's the main reason I'm keeping mine. I might make the middle box removable because it sure is louder with out it   and I'd want to be able to tone it down again.


hmmm, not a bad idea, while mine is off the road it might be worth while trying to do the same ...


That would be great as I can't believe the middle box was the cause of the high EGT's.
viperbl

MarkB wrote:
viperbl wrote:
MarkB wrote:
One bottle neck will be the RS4 inlet going onto the S4 heads. Unless you get some staggered phenolic's?


So the transition port spacers allow for a more gentle change in port size and no rough edges??? hmm, let me start a new wish list on 034! :p


You could open out the leading edge of the S4 inlet ports?


hmm, letting me loose on a head with my dremel ... this could have an interesting outcome
viperbl

MarkB wrote:
That would be great as I can't believe the middle box was the cause of the high EGT's.


True, but maybe all it needed was that little bit less restriction ...

at least I left enough at either end of the silencer for tapping onto!
musty

viperbl wrote:
MarkB wrote:
Should be really interesting to see how it goes.

One bottle neck will be the RS4 inlet going onto the S4 heads. Unless you get some staggered phenolic's?


So the transition port spacers allow for a more gentle change in port size and no rough edges??? hmm, let me start a new wish list on 034! :p

My other problem is going to be turbo oil feed pipes, I spent lots getting the feeds adapted for RS4, now I will have to get some more for the S4 ... anyone got any pics of the S4 oil feeds on the block??


IIRC they bango bolt into the s4 oil feed, come let me the the main R&D and take the pug to ADI
MarkB

Well you've got 8 weeks until ADI, only a new engine to build and install so a couple of exhaust flanges shouldn't be too much to sort also
viperbl

musty wrote:
IIRC they bango bolt into the s4 oil feed, come let me the the main R&D and take the pug to ADI


This is RS4, (with single garret kit pipe behind)



Think you will all be ready for ADI mate???

Don't worry, I think you will have steal the lime light!! I will have to pull some amazing driving skills out the bag to keep up


MarkB wrote:
Well you've got 8 weeks until ADI, only a new engine to build and install so a couple of exhaust flanges shouldn't be too much to sort also


hahaha, now, let me load MS Project planner up and get my gantt charts filled out
musty

viperbl wrote:
musty wrote:
IIRC they bango bolt into the s4 oil feed, come let me the the main R&D and take the pug to ADI


This is RS4, (with single garret kit pipe behind)



Think you will all be ready for ADI mate???

Don't worry, I think you will have steal the lime light!! I will have to pull some amazing driving skills out the bag to keep up


MarkB wrote:
Well you've got 8 weeks until ADI, only a new engine to build and install so a couple of exhaust flanges shouldn't be too much to sort also


hahaha, now, let me load MS Project planner up and get my gantt charts filled out



I will check tonight of to the cave to start sorting bits out.

Don't like the lime light I'll leave that to you and Doug my car is a family estate that's all  

Yes it will be ready but cant get the time off of work  
viperbl

musty wrote:
I will check tonight of to the cave to start sorting bits out.

Don't like the lime light I'll leave that to you and Doug my car is a family estate that's all  

Yes it will be ready but cant get the time off of work  


Cheers mate, be good if I can just use my current rs4 oil lines ...

Cant get the time off work!! man! thats gotta hurt, but I know the feeling ...

Hey, Alex could always bring it and show it off for you :p
musty

viperbl wrote:
musty wrote:
I will check tonight of to the cave to start sorting bits out.

Don't like the lime light I'll leave that to you and Doug my car is a family estate that's all  

Yes it will be ready but cant get the time off of work  


Cheers mate, be good if I can just use my current rs4 oil lines ...

Cant get the time off work!! man! thats gotta hurt, but I know the feeling ...

Hey, Alex could always bring it and show it off for you :p



He could but don't think he wants to take responsibility of it all after seeing how much a turbo is and the cost of the engine lol


I know the s4 and rs4 fitment is different did you chop the hose and added the rs4 top end?
dummi

viperbl wrote:

hahaha, now, let me load MS Project planner up and get my gantt charts filled out



just don't spend 7 weeks colouring it  
viperbl

dummi wrote:
viperbl wrote:

hahaha, now, let me load MS Project planner up and get my gantt charts filled out

just don't spend 7 weeks colouring it  


haha, You bet I wont, full steam ahead here dummi

Engine stripped all the way back, everything else on initial look was spot on, only one issue with some slight discoloring (white) on one of the crank journals, I will post a pic later ... I will go over everything carefully later but apart from that, we are rocking and rolling ...





H8CAK

Your not happy unless u have oil on your hands are you rich
Adam

How many engine pulls is this now mate?  
viperbl

@Carl - all in the name of R&D  mate (but yes!)

@Adam -  Forget now, its all down to how long now! Grizz, Lee, Doug and Chris all have me well beat on time need to try harder :p

Now I am thinking, put "dodgy" gearbox back in for 25th sept 1/4 mile stunts and be prepared for box change before ADI, or play save, put good box in and dont do 1/4 .... Remembering I dont have ramp and need to pull engine to do gearbox!
scoobydood

Rich - keep repeating. Must do 1/4 on 25th, must do 1/4 on 25th.

You need to empty a whole can of 'whoopass' on a certain GTR... Plus the other straight liners need to know how fast an S4 is

AND... a certain biker who co-starred in one of your movies is coming along to watch as well....
viperbl

I hear you, I hear you!! Only thing is, with the S4 heads I think it will chock on big HP, so wont be a very good 1/4 mile car??? need to wait and see I guess ...

Anyone know where I can buy a ring grinder?? manual one, dont want to spend the earth.

Had a better look at the pistons/rods, remember that cylinder 4 was down on dry compression, but ok on wet compression? well piston looks ok, rings look ok, top two rings were very close to being in line, but, couple of other piston rings where similar position. Guess the only other thing could be the actual ring gaps are too great? I might check out later.
MarkB

How was the hone looking on the low cylinder?
viperbl

MarkB wrote:
How was the hone looking on the low cylinder?


Yep, looks fine, at least constant with the others anyway.

Here is a picture of no2 crank bearings...

Says here that i could be dirt?



Doug

Is the crank marked?

Was the bearing dry when you removed it?
viperbl

Doug wrote:
Is the crank marked?

Was the bearing dry when you removed it?


Re checked crank, looks fine, no markings, hmm, not sure if it was dry not or, did not notice ...
Doug

Is it the coating come off the bearing or dirt on it - if the engine has been sitting for a long time it could be dry and started to corrode??

If the crank is fine all is good - you better not be re using the bearings!
viperbl

Its funny, not sure what it is, underneath the white stuff it looks like it has worn off the coating ... some of the other bearings have the coating coming off as well ...

Yeah, agreed, put a set of main bearings in my list with 034 , thankfully the rod bearings are all in perfect nick, so not going to bother replacing all of them, I can handle plastergauging the crank only! lol
INA

Build is looking good matey!
viperbl

Cheers Issam

Ok, manage to get hold of an RS4 block along with the S4 block and heads. Going to use RS4 block but still going to use S4 heads/cams.

RS4 block stripped and ready to clean tomorrow with my mates big pressure washer, heads stripped and ready to clean and lap back in. Looking sweet
scoobydood

Sounds good.... any chance you will be running in time for straightliners?
viperbl

scoobydood wrote:
Sounds good.... any chance you will be running in time for straightliners?


Thats the plan

Hoping to have it in the car this weekend if I can
viperbl

Crank/Bottom end all plastigaged up, pistons in



mikey-s

Rich, you don't f*ck about do you?? Probably nothing, but why is number 3 piston in cylinder 1??
viperbl

mikey-s wrote:
Rich, you don't f*ck about do you?? Probably nothing, but why is number 3 piston in cylinder 1??



haha, I just write numbers down lol, more for my reference than anything thing else! You should see my notes, I recon only I could understand them
viperbl

Any comments on ring spacing?

Looking at piston from the top, lets say ring 1 gap is at 12, ring two is around 5 and then the top oil ring gap is around 9, with the lower oil ring gap being around the opposite side…

Does this around about right?
mikey-s

Sounds about right, but ring spacing is overrated anyway! It'll be fine.
INA

viperbl wrote:
Any comments on ring spacing?

Looking at piston from the top, lets say ring 1 gap is at 12, ring two is around 5 and then the top oil ring gap is around 9, with the lower oil ring gap being around the opposite side…

Does this around about right?

Just make sure the oil ring support rails are on opposite ends to each other so if your oil ring is at 9 put the bottom one at say 6 and the top one at 12.
Seen a few engines that needed a rework on the rings where the guys oriented all 5 rings (top,2nd and 3 oil) all at 12 oclock
viperbl

Thanks for advice on oil rings guys.

So, today I have been mostly working on heads, heads heads ... all stripped, cleaned, lapped back in and built back up. They are now on the engine and its looking better already .





Now need to change linkage over to this second hand gearbox I got, S4 box, so on an even par with you S4 guys now for FATS times
musty

Why is there a zip tie around the timing bar?

Looking good pal ready for Tuesday install
viperbl

musty wrote:
Why is there a zip tie around the timing bar?

Looking good pal ready for Tuesday install


Had too many of them, got carried away , nah, just to stop it coming loose as I dont have the cambelt yet so can't finish that off, going to install in the car as it is ...

I've started with the angle grinder, got the front part of the firewall off. Not sure what to do next, the steering rack is screwed onto the bottom part ...
viperbl









davs4

You've gotta love angle grinders    

How much more room has that made?
viperbl

davs4 wrote:
How much more room has that made?


Not enough, only just started!!  
davs4

LOL happy cutting  
Matt_D

mikey-s wrote:
Rich, you don't f*ck about do you??


I second that, fair play to you mate

Any ideas of bhp and torque levels expected ?
PaulyRS4

Look's like a lot of work bud hope all goes well for ya.
viperbl

I recon not as much HP Matt due to these small S4 heads and cams, but, I am hoping for loads of torque this time! lol, we will see ...

Next try will probably be RS4 cams on these S4 heads, then, maybe back to RS4 heads, but using S4 cams?! lol, I am confused now :S
jimbo

why have you done that mate. must have missed something??
viperbl

jimbo wrote:
why have you done that mate. must have missed something??


Not quite sure again, should not drink while working ...

Lol, no, was wanting more room, but the next part is square and must have some structural use so need to reassess before removing ...
H8CAK

Wow that is some extreame shit u got going on there Rich!
MarkB

viperbl wrote:



It's going to take some work to make it look neat and not so sharp!!!    

TBF I'm not sure you've gained a lot?
viperbl

Haha Carl, all in the name of R&D

I know Mark, the only gain from this is it might be a little easier to take off and on the external wastegates, but agree I need to take more off to make it work.
MarkB

Fully cage the shell and you can safely remove more...

Handy being able to remove the wastegates though hopefully you won't need to so soon this time....
mikeyquattro

your a feckin animal!
viperbl

mikeyquattro wrote:
your a feckin animal!


raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar
Chris M

Was that just to have more space for the wastegates?
viperbl

Chris M wrote:
Was that just to have more space for the wastegates?


Not just, ultimately I hope to take all of it away so there is plenty more room for work in the back there but as I said, this square beam looks structural and until I am able to weld in another beam there and bracket to support steering rack. Tell Doug to rip his out so I can see how he does it
satans child

..

rich.. i chopped mine out a few years ago ... i have the pics of me doing it somewhere on my pc.... ?

ill try and find them for you ... it looks very tidy if you do it right ..ill pm you some pics as soon as i find them...
viperbl

Re: ..

satans child wrote:
rich.. i chopped mine out a few years ago ... i have the pics of me doing it somewhere on my pc.... ?

ill try and find them for you ... it looks very tidy if you do it right ..ill pm you some pics as soon as i find them...


That would be spot on Jack!! I assume you did not put any extra strengthening in there, but did you have a cage at the time to take up extra strength?
satans child

no i did put the strength back there with a 8mm x 60mm strip of steel bent to the shape of the bulkhead ... thus i was able to remove the support bar that goes between the top of the strutt top's..

it looks so much cleaner in there then..
viperbl

I am liking this

If you find the pics please post
MarkB

How's the build coming on Rich? Nearly ready to go back in?
spen

Oh my god, Rich.  Just caught up.  Like many others I'm sure, I feel for you.  You must have been gutted.

I'm glad you didn't throw the towel in.

Have you considered slightly,erm, er, <flamesuit on> less massive turbos to enable better spool up?  If you're on s4 heads then they just won't flow the air at high rpm which is when your GTs will spool up??  Can you fit GT25xx wheels to other gt28 CHRAs?  Just a thought?

Spen

PS you should get something in the post very shortly
viperbl

Cheers fella, ah, you got to laugh and keep going!

At the moment I am going to play around with heads etc since I have to change them anyway, turbo’s at a later stage, but, still got this VR6 thing lurking in the back of my mind!!

The other problem with changing to smaller wheels is that the housings would need to be changed as well? Can’t put smaller wheels in larger housings … not a massive problem but more $$$ as they are custom housings…
spen

yeah got ya.  I thought the garrett stuff was a lot cheaper than the KKK, that's all.  Still it is money at the end of the day.

If you're up for the VR6 conversion, I'd do that. If I hadn't built a 3.0 I would have done a RS6 engine conversion.  

In light of your discovery I'm cursing my purchase of a set of OEM sodium filled valves over inconel or titanium.  I'm gonna set my rpm limit a little lower now...
viperbl

Garrett stuff is cheaper, but if you want new housings its going to add up, just CHRA's are cheaper.

I am liking the idea with the VR6 of being able to have two turbo choices, one for torque and track day driving, another for all out HP and ¼ miles etc … hopefully a few hours work to change turbo’s depending on application
aposegil

you still talking get back out there and do some work on the car lol

but you are right it is nice to be able to change turbo easier
viperbl

Haha, yeah, I have repaired my gazebo so should be cracking on later! Especially since Musty has come through with a clutch for me! (thanks mate!)

Here’s another thing, Ive had a nice boost leak for the whole time I have been running this car, but thanks to Lee and Grizz the turbo’s are now nice and fully sealed

So, I think I will try a little bit more boost through them, especially if they have been running 1.9 bar with a nice leak no problem!
aposegil

mate you know if we can help out we will

also that is good to hear about the turbos been resealed might even give back torque as more it can hold the preasure the better

i was thinking if you have the bulk head cut out you might even be able to change turbos with engine in. Ok you would have to rrework the manifolds to the sit above them but hey it could work and the intake at the back of the engine like the rs6

you have been giving me bad thoughts lol
loomx

Yeh, should be able to build more pressure, earlier = more torque
satans child

rich... i have them pics for you....

whats your e mail addy ill send them to you..
viperbl

Thanks Jack

Right, did a leak down test on the engne tonight, cyl 2 and 4 held NO pressure!, wtf ... took head 456 off and found that middle inlet valve on cly 4 was not shut!!! eh?! pushed it, pop, it shut ...

Dodgy valve guides maybe? valves are straight ok as I put them in a drill to clean them, all turned true...

Means stripping the head down again, and can I reuse the guides from my 2.4 heads (they were new on the heads so down low miles) or will it be ok, I mean, under anger it willl probably close ok ... I did a quick water in the cly test before I stripped the heads and they were shut ok then, so ok straight out of a runniing engine if that makes sense.. actually, what am I saying, of course they need replaced, just trying to talk myself out of work here! lol
viperbl

Engine back in



andream88

uhhmmmm, love the red WGs.

AHAHAH
Ghost

Nice one Rich, you must be missing her by now.
viperbl

So after a few more hours this weekend inbetween heading up the track to watch the caterhams yet again dominate! I think the chap with his new xbow was not overlay impressed

Anyway, just a few odds and sods and we are ready to run again



aposegil

mate why havent you finish cutting up the slam panel?

also nice to see nearly back together.
viperbl

Decided that my welding was not maybe up to the job just yet for structural stuff! Plus  wanted to get it up and running for straightliners /ADI .. I think I will finish that when I do the cage
aposegil

ah ok lol

cool well can't wait to see how much room it will give you once you do, do it.
viperbl

Well ... got home today, injectors in and all ready!

Fill up the water, wait, whats that ... water pouring out from under the car!

If anyone heard a Noooooooooooooooo, ringing in the distance, it was me ... followed by some choice words ...

Ended up being the metal pipe that goes from the front of the block (inside the V) to the back and then into the heater matrix. Manged to just get it out enough to put a new rubber seal on it, bingo, good to go!

Compression test = 11bar on each cylinder

It started first time!

Up to temp, all good...

Just done a lap of the coarse with only one issue, rubbing sound from the offside rear, but appart from that, nothing!!!
mikey-s

Happy days!!  Well done!
Matt_D

Exellent news look forward to a new video
Ghost

Nice one Rich.
ScottR

So at what point does the remapping start?
viperbl

Cheers guys

Well, the viperbl bedding in map is in just now , but I might head out with Philc and try to improve the part throttle and cruising maps.

Then, hopefully by sunday I will have the miles on it and ready to go for it!!!
philc

Must admit I'm well impressed Rich, to see an engine built from scratch in a couple of weeks and then kicking over 1st time tonight and doing a full lap of the TT without any problems, all gauges spot on and the car feeling good!  Respect fella  
davidhodgkinson

Well done, great news  
Ghost

philc wrote:
Must admit I'm well impressed Rich, to see an engine built from scratch in a couple of weeks and then kicking over 1st time tonight and doing a full lap of the TT without any problems, all gauges spot on and the car feeling good!  Respect fella  


You are joking right?

Am I about to get my car serviced in the Isle of Man by that mad f***er I think not, so sorry to put the killjoy on your tuning firm Phil and Rich.

Anyway I would go for an oil change and the next thing I know would be a 750whp VR6 in the bay and a £7K bill!
philc

Come on over Ghost!  you know you want to...
scoobydood

7k fpr 750whp vr conversion. Where do I sigh the order!?!?
Ghost

philc wrote:
Come on over Ghost!  you know you want to...


Have to get a few suspension arms sorted, then F**k work I will be over.

And then I will start the slow mo You tube vids I have been planning, Paul gets overtaken by Rich for the third time - although he blocks him and swears f**ker.
viperbl

120 miles so far and going strong
Cornishmoocher

Awesome Rich.
philc

Sweet  
MarkB

viperbl wrote:
120 miles so far and going strong


Well done Rich

How's the spool up? Are you giving the engine wastegate pressure yet?
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