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JohnnyB

S400JJB New Engine and Mapped for E85

Time for a new engine with uprated rods, Wossner .5mm oversize pistons, Ported NA heads and RS4 inlet manifold and throttle body.

I will be getting it mapped by Viperbl to run on E85 fuel for increased power for track use and having another map for day to day running around on 99 octane fuel.

Be interesting to see what results I get from it. Will be keeping it running on K04 STG 2 hybrids so it produces a lot of low down torque.

Will add some pictures and keep updated as the job progresses.
MilkybarKid

Nice
Will be keeping an eye on this one!
MarkB

Another thread for the Projects forum Johnny??
JohnnyB

Cheers mate will keep updates and pictures as Im going on with it. Be interesting to see what it does on E85.
MarkB

I'm very interested in E85, but alas none for sale near me
satans child

so your finally getting round to it... great stuff..
JohnnyB

Yeah finally on with it now. I have a good supply of E85 from Morrisons petrol station in York which is 2 mins from work.
Paz

Nice one Johnny  
JohnnyB

Cheers Paz have just removed the engine again today. Need to get my flywheel and clutch to the engine builders on Monday so they can carry out the dynamic balancing of the bottom end of the engine.

Heads should be back fairly soon from been ported and polished, so they can be re assembled and fitted to the rest of the engine. Hopefully by the end of June it should be back up and running.

The current engine will be stripped down this next week and find out what has gone wrong in the bottom end. Im suspecting it has spun a shell as it has locked itself solid.
MarkB

So are you going with the 2.4 heads on this build? RS4 inlet etc??
JohnnyB

Yes 2.4 NA ported and polished heads Mark with 3 angle valve seats and 2 angle valves. The valves, springs and retainers are all standard items. I wont be increasing the maximum engine speed so they will be fine.

I will be using a ported and polished RS4 inlet manifold to match the ports of the NA heads. Obviously I will be reusing my phenolic spacers this can cause the ports not to line up quite as well but can't see it causing to many problems.

I will get camera out and start getting some pictures of whats going on, and show how stuff is been done.
sparkyvw

JohnnyB wrote:
Yeah finally on with it now. I have a good supply of E85 from Morrisons petrol station in York which is 2 mins from work.


mmmm e85 in york.  When i bring the s4 over next year maybe i can run e85 now.
JohnnyB

Ive got the heads back from been ported now here are some pictures. The heads will next have the valve seats cut and the valves before the heads are acid dipped to clean them and be reassembled.

The first picture is of a standard S4 head inlet port. The rest of the pictures are of the ported NA heads, as you can see the ports are massive compared to S4 heads. Ive had my RS4 manifold ported to match the inlet ports.









audimad100

hell theres some difference between the two, going to be interesting to follow this Jonny
JohnnyB

Thanks

They will flow a lot more air than the standard S4 heads. Once they've been cleaned will look like new.

Inlet manifold and camcovers are off to the powder coaters today, so should be back in the next 2 weeks ready to go on the new engine.
andream88

Hei johnny, did you port the heads by yourself?

Can you please post a picture of the tool you've used?
JohnnyB

Hi Bahnstorm ported my heads for me.
JohnnyB

Engine is now been stripped down ready for cleaning, rebore 0.5mm over size, then to fit new rods and pistons. The whole bottom end will then be dynamically balanced with the clutch and flywheel fitted.

This engine is from a 63,000 mile 2000 model B5 S4 which had suffered a snapped timing belt, as I was going to build this engine while the car was still on the road.



















jimbo

are you going for low comp pistons johnny. ?
JohnnyB

Yes im fitting low comp Wossenor pistons will be using standard gaskets, pistons drop it to 8:1. Not running massive boost so won't need to lower it anymore.

It was running compression drop gaskets previously.
Matt_D

Would be an ideal time to whack in a 3.0 litre crank

Whats gains do you think are to be had running e85 insteads of 'normal' vpower etc
JohnnyB

E85 has a higher octane rating than race fuel should produce in the region of 600bhp on E85. I will be fitting bigger injectors and a second fuel pump as you need to inject more fuel when using E85.

Leaving it as a 2.7 don't want to 3l this engine.
JohnnyB

Once the block was stripped it was cleaned again before been bored out ready for the new pistons. This shows the the block getting bored out.

JohnnyB

My 0.5mm over size Wossner pistons with 8:1 lower compression ratio ready to be fitted to my H beam forged con rods.

 

The pistons are fitted to the rods and just need the rings fitting before fitting back in to the block once it has been cleaned again and painted.

JohnnyB

Once the block had been bored out it has been cleaned again and painted with VHT Black paint.






Matt_D

Awesome and thanks for the info
jimbo

good work johnny, question is whos car is going to be up and running first
gizmo

Brilliant project.  I had heard E85 can corrode some fuel lines and other parts, is that correct?
JohnnyB

jimbo wrote:
good work johnny, question is whos car is going to be up and running first


Cheers Jim who knows??????
JohnnyB

gizmo wrote:
Brilliant project.  I had heard E85 can corrode some fuel lines and other parts, is that correct?


Thanks Gizmo, I have'nt heard that it corrodes anything.
gizmo

Sorry, can't remember where I heard that.  Practical Performance Car had a few articles about it 2/3 years ago and Dave Walker at Emerald did some work with it.  Don't know if you read any of those articles?  Some good info I think, especially about cars racing the BTCC using E85.
satans child

any methanol based fuel WILL corrode your fuel system .. and especially anything alloy, but if you run the system through with normal fuel thus will prevent this ... also you will find im sure the bosch fuel pumps may not like it... maybe best to get some info direct from bosch.. this is why ive decided to stay and run c16 race gas in my car, as the methanol route i already have so much stuff for, i am still being advised that electric fuel pumps could not suplie enough fuel and i would be far better of running a mechanical fuel pump at a very significant cost again... another thing is running meth fuels will require one hell of an ignition... the spark will need to be far far more than your running now ...
i have some ignition coils if so you do require any...    

its all looking very nice jonny....  
supersi

What about using blue avgas is 112 Octane and then add proboost , I used to use this in my motorcrossers and racing karts,, makes a good  diffrance bikes would rev a lot cleaner and much more snap  . Iam sure they do avgas in 150 octane as well

I used to get from bodmin airfield was £25 for 10ltrs about a year ago , doesn't go off either like most fuels or gum up fuel lines or carbs if left over a year
JohnnyB

My car won't be running E85 all the time only for increased power for track use etc. It will have switchable maps to run 99 or E85. Thanks for the info guy's and I know where to come if I need some uprated coils and a fuel pump Jack.

E85 can cause the bores to glaze as well if used as your only fuel.
JohnnyB

The crank has been checked and now refitted in to the block using new main bearings. Have'nt fitted coated bearings as the OE ones are extremely good anyway.



JohnnyB

Now the crank and main bearings are fitted in to the block it's time to fit the pistons and rods back in to the block. Once the piston rings are fitted they are compressed using a piston ring compressor as can be seen in the picture. It is important to make sure the ring compressor is seated to the block well and then a sharp tap with the end of a hammer shaft to refit them in to the bores.



kramrs2

Hi,
congratulations on your building!

I think though that there some misunderstanding of what E85 could do or not to the engine or to the parts that take contact with it.

I run E100 (100% ethanol) on my car for over 3 years and used it for 3 years on my RS2 before the S4. Every tuned car in Brazil use it as it is much better for performance than gas, even race gas on most cases.

There are some issues using ethanol, but they are far from the problems of using methanol, which is much more aggressive.

To use E100 or I think even E85 some parts need to be changed or over the time one problem or another will occur.

1) The tank. Thats the only problem that I could not overcome. The level sensor goes bad every 6 months. I need to take it out, clean it , brush it and put it back.

2) Fuel pump. I use 3 Stainless Steel Bosch high pressure pumps designed in Brazil for Ethanol and Flex Fuel cars. If used with old style standard type, with aluminum case, it will fail after some time due to the formation of a kind of a glue inside the pump.

3) Lines. NO PROBLEM. They are coated and resist very well to corrosion by ethanol. Only if you change them for other type, as I did, you must take care of the o-rings on your connections. They must be made of teflon or urethan or silicon. Standard rubber get dry with time and could crack.

4) Injectors. As well as the fuel pump must be changed or they will fail. To use ethanol they must be SS as well. Bosch, Delphi and other make them in SS.
ah, and they need to be BIGGER!!!

5)Engine. NOTHING, with high temperature alcohol do not "glaze" or do anything bad to the engine. Only the very last part of the exhaust could be a problem if it is not made of SS AND the car is driven for very short distance often, letting some liquid ethanol to condense at the colder parts of the exhaust and corroding them.

There are a lot of myths, but I can assure you that it will make no harm to your engine.
JohnnyB

Thanks for the info that's very helpfull thankyou.

It's good to hear from someone who runs there car on ethanol fuel.
JohnnyB

Now the rods are back in the block the big end shells are fitted and the rod caps. Now they are all torqued down its time to fit the flywheel and clutch and dynamically balance the bottom end of the engine before the heads are refitted.



viperbl

mmmmmmmm looking good johnny
5potmad

Why 3 Bosch pumps Johnny? how do you get them to run??
viperbl

5potmad wrote:
Why 3 Bosch pumps Johnny? how do you get them to run??


Thats kramrs2 that has the three, to make sure there is no issue with the extra flow needed for E100 ...
satans child

i can get you 1 big magnafuel pupm like the one i have if you just want 1 pump to run it... but beware... it comes in at just over £1000.00....    
kramrs2

yeah! Rich is right.

I needed a lot of fuel and it is much much cheaper to use local fuel pumps.
We have here 12 bar 2,2l/min pumps in SS for about US$200.

To run them I made a two more holes on the top of the stock pump exit and put two hard hoses that go down to the base of the tank and attached pre-filters to them. I swap the stock pump for a hose also using the same type of arrangement. The pumps that I used are external pumps and each of them use  one filter each. 3 teflon lines go to the front. of the car. There a "spider" connection equalize the the entries and exits.



Satan, I wish I could use just one pump, but add to to the price that you gave 100% of tax for the price+shipping and that is why I use my arrangement.
JohnnyB

Crikey £1000 for a fuel pump. I may get a fuel tank sender top machined up with a different outlet. Will be finishing off building the engine this week all been well and refitted next week. I will keep adding more pictures and updates as it goes on.
JohnnyB

Have got the cam covers and my RS4 inlet manifold back from the powder coaters today. I have had them done in the black crackled finish. The cam covers need the splash plates refitting as they have to be removed as shot from the blasting can get stuck behind them. They are held in by the aluminium been stamped over them from the factory, this has to be ground off using a die grinder to get them out. I will be taking them to the engineering company to have some holes drilled with the milling machine then tapped out then refit the plates using small screws and thread lock.







jimbo

dunno about this finish johnny id prefer something smooth. are you going to leave the engine covers off as you wont see this work with them on. i may still get my cam covers painted yet as they look a bit manky
JohnnyB

Im going to leave the engine covers off. With my Y pipe been shiny silver and my hoses been blue it should contrast quite nicely against my black cam covers and inlet manifold. My intercooler and pipes are also black.
audimad100

i think it looks superb Johnny, love the finish totally different to anything else ive seen, as you say with the Y pipe and blue hose's it will be a real eye catcher. keep the pics coming  
JohnnyB

Thanks mate will do.
satans child

great choice in finish jonny....    

my best freind does the crackle finish black rocker covers for aston martin he owns a company called pro coat..... well he would as he just keeps buying new ones from them...lol .. prob why they gave him the contract  

mine will be done the very same.. and there is nothing that looks a more professional finish than crackle finish blac... or red  
mikeyquattro

Looking good Johnny
tdiquattro

JohnnyB wrote:
Now the rods are back in the block the big end shells are fitted and the rod caps. Now they are all torqued down its time to fit the flywheel and clutch and dynamically balance the bottom end of the engine before the heads are refitted.


Looks great, a quick question, how did you torque up the ARP2000 bolts, did you have a stretch gauge, if not what proceedure did you follow please?
jimbo

how do you balance the bottom end once the crank is back in the block. thought it was done out of the car but with the clutch assy and pulley attatched. ?
JohnnyB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxWp2J1WG0A&feature=related
JohnnyB

jimbo wrote:
how do you balance the bottom end once the crank is back in the block. thought it was done out of the car but with the clutch assy and pulley attatched. ?


It is mate I got it wrong. Have you had yours done? My engine is getting built by my engine builder at the moment. Engine should be back this week just waiting for a rear main oil seal housing.

He has been taking the pictures for me as he has been on with it.
jimbo

JohnnyB wrote:
jimbo wrote:
how do you balance the bottom end once the crank is back in the block. thought it was done out of the car but with the clutch assy and pulley attatched. ?


It is mate I got it wrong. Have you had yours done? My engine is getting built by my engine builder at the moment. Engine should be back this week just waiting for a rear main oil seal housing.

He has been taking the pictures for me as he has been on with it.


no . nothings changed on the crank assy. why should it need doing. ?
JohnnyB

Most of the rotational imbalances are normally in the clutch and flywheel. You have fitted new rods, aftermarket flywheel and clutch etc and if it's never been done I would do so especially if your after big power.
tdiquattro

So where do they take the material from then?
If that is the case the next time you change the clutch or flywheel the engine will go out of ballance, surely it is better to ballance the bottom end and leave the clutch and flywheel separate?
JohnnyB

They drill a little hole or grind off material where it is needed. Yes if the clutch and flywheel are replaced they will need balancing again.

It is important to balance the clutch and flywheel as they are attatched to the crank shaft.

Look at it this way if you have a perfectly balanced driveshaft and hub then fit an un balanced wheel to the end of it, feels like the car is about to self distruct from vibration.

Not saying this will be as bad as that but needs to be done for a high performance engine.
JohnnyB

tdiquattro wrote:
JohnnyB wrote:
Now the rods are back in the block the big end shells are fitted and the rod caps. Now they are all torqued down its time to fit the flywheel and clutch and dynamically balance the bottom end of the engine before the heads are refitted.


Looks great, a quick question, how did you torque up the ARP2000 bolts, did you have a stretch gauge, if not what proceedure did you follow please?


The tightening procedure for the big end rod bolts is 30nm on each bolt followed by a 90' turn.

On stretch bolts you don't measure the stretch they are just tightened in a certain way as dictated by the vehicle manufacturer, and are usually single use only but not always as they sometimes give measurements to measure the bolts to see if they are suitable to be reused.

Rod bolts on Audi 30V V6 engines should always be replaced.
andream88

Our engines come externally balanced from the factory (which means they put the rotating assembly on a balancing machine and they drill the flywheel to get the balance into spec).

I've just got my rotating assembly rebalanced (by JP@JNLRacing), and now it is internally balanced.
This is done by balancing the crankshaft alone, then adding the flywheel/clutch etc and balancing everything as a whole (drilling the FW/clutch this time, instead of the crank).

If i will ever need to replace the flywheel in the future, it will be enough to get it balanced separately and then re-installed. That's it.

Moreover, when you replace the rods with lighter ones you should always get the rotating assembly rebalanced.
Replacing the DMFW with a SMFW is a big no no as well. You will bring the engine out of balance, which is not good at high rpms. It will be probably fine in the short run, but will surely last less than a correctly balanced engine!

Cheers
JohnnyB

andream88 wrote:
Our engines come externally balanced from the factory (which means they put the rotating assembly on a balancing machine and they drill the flywheel to get the balance into spec).

I've just got my rotating assembly rebalanced (by JP@JNLRacing), and now it is internally balanced.
This is done by balancing the crankshaft alone, then adding the flywheel/clutch etc and balancing everything as a whole (drilling the FW/clutch this time, instead of the crank).

If i will ever need to replace the flywheel in the future, it will be enough to get it balanced separately and then re-installed. That's it.

Moreover, when you replace the rods with lighter ones you should always get the rotating assembly rebalanced.
Replacing the DMFW with a SMFW is a big no no as well. You will bring the engine out of balance, which is not good at high rpms. It will be probably fine in the short run, but will surely last less than a correctly balanced engine!

Cheers


Nice to see some one agrees with me.
Doug

JohnnyB wrote:


The tightening procedure for the big end rod bolts is 30nm on each bolt followed by a 90' turn.


Johnny- that is for stock stretch bolts - check your rod manufacturer for the correct arp2000 tightening procedure - i have never seen an ARP2000 bolt specced to be torqued like that. You need to know the head size and thread size to get the correct stretch or torque settings for those.
JohnnyB

Thanks Doug I have'nt fitted them my engine is been built by my engine builder. I have given details for standard audi bolts.
JohnnyB

I have spoken to my engine builder this morning he has used an arp stretch gauge to tighten the big end bolts. Which equates to 42ft/lb.
tdiquattro

ah thought so, that is why I asked, ARP dont give torque settings, they want you to use a stretch gauge.
JohnnyB

Yeah he has a stretch gauge for ARP bolts your right. Heads are going back on today and engine should be back with me tomorrow.
JohnnyB

Cam covers have now got the oil breather splash guards refitted. They have had 3 holes drilled and tapped and then had cap headed stainless bolts fitted using threadlock. The other 3 holes can't be drilled and tapped as the cam covers are'nt thick enough. The splash plates are nice and secure using 3 and should'nt rattle.





The gasket faces just need cleaning now ready for the gaskets and refitting to the heads.
JohnnyB

Now the bottom end is rebuilt time to refit the oil pump and the upper and lower parts of the sump which have all been cleaned.



JohnnyB

My heads have had some more finishing work around the back of the valves and had the port dividers given more of a knife edge in the inlet ports. They have had the faces skimmed as well to ensure they are completely flat before re assembley.





JohnnyB

Some more pictures of the reassembled heads been fitted to the block.






grizz

Good build mate , This is going to be rapid ....
JohnnyB

Cheers Grizz I certainly hope so. Tomorrow time to start swapping all the components from the old engine to the new one and get it refitted back in to the car. Should be up and running by this weekend, then time to do 1000 miles in it to bed the rings in. Will be running it on 10w-40 millers oils running in oil its a high grade mineral oil.
will1981

That means there will be a ramp free for mine    Alternatively you could put that shiney lump in my car and you can have mine complete with knackered K03's  
JohnnyB

Ha ha ha ha that sounds a fair deal.

Yeah making room for your S4 engine pull to get your K04's and other goodies fitted ready for Rich to extract a lot more bhp out of it with his magic bhp laptop.    
will1981

Sounds good to me Johnny! I'll give you a buzz closer to the weekend, just need the cost for those injectors, fuel pump will be with me by wed thanks to a certain 5pot lover!
JohnnyB

Engine is now completely built up. Im now waiting for the fabricators to finish off my larger upper and lower intake pipes. They have my old engine fitted with manifolds and turbos attatched to jig them up from.

They are also modifying my APR Bi pipe to fit to the RS4 throttle body by cutting the end off and welding on a new flange to connect it to the throttle body using a silicone joiner. It will also be getting re powder coated in smooth black finish.

As soon as these items are back I can get the engine refitted in the car and get it running. I also need an RS4 fuel rail if anyone has one for sale?

I will also be fitting 3" cat less down pipes with 3" link pipes to my Milltek dual system.
JohnnyB

I have had my APR bi pipe modified to fit to the RS4 throttle body I will connect it using a silicone joiner and Murray constant tension hose clips to prevent any boost leaks. I need to send it to the powder coaters and have it blasted and re coated gloss black.

JohnnyB

I have had a set of stainless steel 60mm inlet pipes made as well. They fit directly on to the turbos with out the need for silicone joining hoses. They are fitted to my old engine as we used it to jig up from. Now they are finished we can swap all the ancillaries over to my new engine and get it refitted in to the car.







pjbRs

Nice looking mods Johnny, look forward to seeing it finished.
viperbl

mmmmmmmmmm
JohnnyB

Thanks Guys its all coming along steadily should all be done ready for ADI. Will keep updates coming as it progresses.
will1981

Looks like some tidy work by the fabricators! Are you painting the Y pipe gloss black too?
mikey-s

Nice work. Can the one piece inlet pipes be removed when the engine is in the car? If not it's going to be a right pain if you ever have to get the cam covers off.
JohnnyB

Y pipe is going to be silver Will. Fabricator's have done a really good job of the inlet pipes im very pleased with them.

Bi pipe is good as well a lot cheaper than buying RS4 Bi pipe.
JohnnyB

mikey-s wrote:
Nice work. Can the one piece inlet pipes be removed when the engine is in the car? If not it's going to be a right pain if you ever have to get the cam covers off.


They can be moved enough with the engine in the car to get the coils and cam covers off. Once the brackets have been disconnected with the front panel in he service position they can be moved. We have spent a while trying the engine in and out of the car to get the pipes to fit correctly around the chassis legs, air con pipes, and engine mountings.
will1981

Might look nice in black Johnny, I'm going to have mine done when it goes for paint  

Did your fabricators polish the pipes or was it already polished and they just did the welds?
JohnnyB

They have polished the inlet pipes up for me. Black Y pipe could look good I have everything else black could be a bit much needs something to break it up a bit.

Not sure weather to go for red or black silicone hoses yet either.
will1981

Black Y pipe with red silicone would look nice on a silver car! Even though silver is a homosexual colour  
JohnnyB

Ha ha ha ha ha  
JohnnyB

Have'nt had any updates for a while as we have been really busy so have'nt had time to be working on it. I have made my MAF housing today which is 102mm. I have made a boss for it from flat aluminium bar and had it welded in to my MAF housing tube. The picture shows an RS4 MAF tube inside it quite a big difference. The RS4 MAF element is held in to the new housing using two bolts in to the boss. This wants painting now along with a few other bits. All been well it should be up and running this weekend. Will be able to then get it run in and mapped again for the E85. We are currently swapping all the parts manifolds turbos from my old engine to the new one.









JohnnyB

Y pipe, MAF housing, and Bi pipe have now been spayed metallic black. Engine is all built up now with manifolds and ancillaries fitted ready to be refitted today. Just waiting for my air filter and silicone hoses to arrive. New 3" downpipes fitted and full RS4 inlet system.









mikeyquattro

Nice one Johnny. You gonna bring it to ADI?
JohnnyB

Yes will be bringing it to ADI doing VMAX in it as well in October. Will be taking it to York drag racing and a couple of other track days before the years out as well. As soon as it's running will need to get a 1000 miles on it and a few oil changes then get it mapped to run on E85 with a 5 bar fuel pressure regulator.
mikeyquattro

It'll be good to see it . More piss taking in the evening too
JohnnyB

Yeah ADI should be good. A good evening piss take should be a laugh.
will1981

Looks sh*t.............

Black is only reserved for fast S4's  
JohnnyB

Cheers Will you cheeky b*stard
audimad100

the paintwork looks faultless Johnny, love the MAF housing what did that cost to get made up
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