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ScottR

ScottR's B5 S4 DIY Engine Pull - Project Thunder

Been reading through a few DIY guides and watched the Audi video on pulling an S4 engine. Although they elude to some of the tools needed, I was wondering if people could help by putting together a definitive list of tools needed for the job, and maybe any special/extra tools which would make parts of the job easier.

I'm heading over to my mate's place on Saturday, and will be kicking myself if I've not got a vital tool! The Audiworld write up mentions a '10mm triple square'. What's that in English?

I've got a fairly decent selection of heavy duty sockets and screwdriver/allen/torx bits, but do I have all the right sized ones?? I think from memory, the hex bolts used to hold the bumper on to the crash bars were quite big. Anyone remember the size?

I'm looking to buy the Halfords Pro 33 piece Ratchet set which had spanners from 8-19mm (half price at the moment). Am I likely to be thrown a curve ball and find I need a 22mm one our something annoying like that?

I've got a bucket to catch coolant, another to catch oil, probably worth getting a third for blood/sweat/tears, jacks, axle stands, hammers and breaker bars a plenty (I always end up using these on DIY tasks, eg: changing light bulbs, washing the car, etc. ) and have an engine hoist on hand. The latter being rather important... so I'm told.


In addition to tools, is there a list of bolts, gaskets, seals, etc. needed prior to reinstallation, given that I will be removing the turbos for inspection? Appreciate I'm probably getting ahead of myself here, as this may end up a one-way journey!

Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated chaps... And wish me luck!!
DavidT

Scott the only tool needed for that job is:

<no wait, I can't say that>



Good luck mate
Aragorn

Triple Square (aka XZN) is a particular type of 12-splined bit, used on a lot of VAG motors. Driveshaft bolts for instance use this type of fastener.

Bumper to shocks is 8mm hex iirc.
ScottR

Thanks for that. Where would I be able to pick up one of these wacky driveshaft tools?
Aragorn

get yourself something like this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0001K...22206&creativeASIN=B0001K9R6W
think_or_thwim

Length of chain and some shackles maybe!!!!  Also the tool to get the fan off the pulley!!!
audimad100

think_or_thwim wrote:
Length of chain and some shackles maybe!!!!  Also the tool to get the fan off the pulley!!!


good shout Reg, i dont think you will see the Main dealer using some of the methods we tried    
think_or_thwim

Oh yeah, one of them Tesco Bread trolley jobbers to rest the engine on after removal!  Great item!



and free if you can stealth past security!!
DavidT

DavidT wrote:
Scott the only tool needed for that job is:

<no wait, I can't say that>



Good luck mate


I was only joking I'd be happy to come along and brew up/hold yer spanners/lift heavy stuff if you like
audimad100

DavidT wrote:
DavidT wrote:
Scott the only tool needed for that job is:

<no wait, I can't say that>



Good luck mate


I was only joking I'd be happy to come along and brew up/hold yer spanners/lift heavy stuff if you like


and do the documenting David. again great to see a DIY job about to start and offers of help
think_or_thwim

audimad100 wrote:
DavidT wrote:
DavidT wrote:
Scott the only tool needed for that job is:

<no wait, I can't say that>



Good luck mate


I was only joking I'd be happy to come along and brew up/hold yer spanners/lift heavy stuff if you like


and do the documenting David. again great to see a DIY job about to start and offers of help


True,  more SRS there the better, its a family thing an engine removal.  And lots of tea!!
ScottR

think_or_thwim wrote:
Length of chain and some shackles maybe!!!!  Also the tool to get the fan off the pulley!!!


Don't suppose you have one of those tools to lend out do you?  

Also, any particularly awkward bits I need to be aware of?

As this is such a daunting task for someone like me who is not altogether familiar with spanners, i'm not expecting to get the engine out in one go.  Will only have about 6 hours to work on the car on Saturday, so reckon I would be happy with having it all stripped and ready for 'the final yank' by beer o'clock.  What are my chances of getting it out in that sort of time?  I've got a couple of mates who should be on hand to help out if need be, both of whom know their onions when it comes to this sort of thing.  One of them has his own home-built dragster!

The main thing i've got going for me is that the engine has been out a few times in the car's life, so i'm hoping there shouldn't be too many 'bolts of doom' which refuse to budge.

Getting quite excited now!
audimad100

you will have it sorted in 6 hrs Scott, 1st strip all the front off remove the engine wiring harness from the ECU complete no need to unplug all the sensors, remove the exhaust (easier under the car), remove bolts from the drive shafts and prop, leave the air con charged with the condensing rad hung over the side of the car, strip out the intercoolers and front panel this will include seperating all the wiring connections (these are next to the PAS tank) the clutch feed pipe is a bit tricky and have something to put over the end of the pipe to stop debris getting in there and to stop fluid getting everywhere.release all the engine and gearbox mounts. get a trolley jack under the rear of the gear box (this will help when you are trying to ease the engine out) shackle up the hoist and start lifting, you will need to lift the front engine mounts out of there cradle then its gently forward. this is when you can tackle the clutch pipe as it will give you a few more inchs to work in. if you can pull the drive shafts as it will make the removal easier. we didnt on Reg's  car and the passenger one was a bit of a pig to get over, i think we will pull the drive shafts when we drop his engine back in again. with a fair wind you should have it out in about 4-5hrs
audimad100

sorry i meant to say take pictures of any plumbing and wiring that you mess with, this will help for reference when it goes back in. also mark up the position of the front panel as it will again make for setting up easier when it all goes back together  
grizz

This is one tool you'll need scott ..
ScottR

LOL, I was waiting for that Grizz!

Make sure you leave a slot free for me the day after the engine is supposed to go back in!
ScottR

audimad100 wrote:
if you can pull the drive shafts as it will make the removal easier. we didnt on Reg's  car and the passenger one was a bit of a pig to get over, i think we will pull the drive shafts when we drop his engine back in again.

When you say 'pull the drive shafts', do you mean disconnect at the CV joint and remove the whole drive shafts?  I thought i'd seen people disconnect the driveshafts from the gearbox, or is that the method you are warning me against?

Oh, and I've got a pallet and pallet truck for the engine once it's out, so that's sorted.  Cheers for the heads up!  

Read MikeCS4's project thread earlier (I'm going through them all to give me the best chance!).  I think his timescales seem more suited to my level of skill, patience and stamina (no offence to MikeCS4!!!).
audimad100

we had some grief getting the gearbox past the N/S drive shaft and after speaking to Steve Grimreaper he had the same issue. if you need to leave the car on the wheels then im sure you can do it just a bit of grief. i think as we will have the use of a 2 poster ramp to re-fit Regs motor back in it will be a lot easier with the drive shafts out of the way
jimbo

get one of these sets scotty.  

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sealey-42pc...Equipment&hash=item3cb27085aa
Grim Reaper

defo helps when you have access to a proper garage car lift like when we did Reg's car. It took a few hours off the time it took me on my own with the car on axle stands. Like Dave said if you can remove the drive shafts it'll make life a lot easier but not essential you do it. Oh you'll need a spline bit as well for the prop shaft bolts not sure what size mine was though as took my engine out about 3 years ago lol
ScottR

Pretty certain it's an M10 spline bit from what I've read. My mate said he's got a load of bits, so should be good to go. He's assured me there's zero chance of getting the engine out on Saturday. The gauntlet has been thrown down!

So CV's removed from the hubs and slide the whole lot out (engine, gearbox and driveshafts)?

Sorry for the daft questions!
audimad100

spline bit for the drive shaft CV's but it was a M8 or M10 allen bolt for the center prop
MikeCS4

ScottR wrote:
Read MikeCS4's project thread earlier (I'm going through them all to give me the best chance!).  I think his timescales seem more suited to my level of skill, patience and stamina (no offence to MikeCS4!!!).


None taken Scott, It's a lot easier when you have somebody helping you, I did the lot pretty much by myself juggling it around shifts and other commitments whilst also being at the mercy of the weather working outside rather than in a nice warm garage
audimad100

defo many hands make light work of it, i would imagine it being hard work on your own, so well done to anyone that has done the pull single handed. there was 3 or 4 of us pulling Reg's motor and Reg being in the forces had us rallied round in a military fashion  4 hrs for a bunch of virgins. best ive heard was Jimbo who had his out in 3hrs and i think he did it on his own  
ScottR

audimad100 wrote:
defo many hands make light work of it, i would imagine it being hard work on your own, so well done to anyone that has done the pull single handed. there was 3 or 4 of us pulling Reg's motor and Reg being in the forces had us rallied round in a military fashion  4 hrs for a bunch of virgins. best ive heard was Jimbo who had his out in 3hrs and i think he did it on his own  


Knowing Jimbo, it was probably his alter ego 'Stellaman' who did his engine pull (think of a thin version of Captain Chaos from Cannonball Run, only fueled by lager).

My best mate who will be helping me has taken plenty of engines out before... but to my knowledge has never needed to replace them again afterwords (he used to import scrappers for parts). I'll have to keep the angle grinder out of sight at all times! His piece of advice was to have a load out sandwich bags and making tape for labels close to hand so we don't forget where the various nuts and bolts go. Seems a good idea.
mrgristle

Visually inspect your hub collar bolts because there are two types used. Mine was a 17mm hex bolt. Make sure you get a half inch socket like this. I bought a 3/8 inch version (all I could find in the shops) and sheared off two 3/8 to 1/2 inch adapters! You will also need a Torx T45 in a 1/2 inch socket to get the bumper shocks off. Good luck with your engine removal, and well played for tackling it yourself .
ScottR

A T45 torx. Knew it was a big bit needed for those. I'd previously sheared a bit in an earlier attempt at removing the bumper. Stiff little buggers to get out.
s4osh

awesome too see another 'pull'
now weirdly im looking forward to do this on my car
when doing sevice last month i made a tool for removing the fan. well easy to do
will get a piccy if you need inspiration on how hope it goes well for you
ScottR

s4osh wrote:

when doing sevice last month i made a tool for removing the fan. well easy to do
will get a piccy if you need inspiration on how hope it goes well for you


Knowledge is power! Post it up.
Aragorn

ScottR wrote:
A T45 torx. Knew it was a big bit needed for those. I'd previously sheared a bit in an earlier attempt at removing the bumper. Stiff little buggers to get out.


The bumper itself is held on with 8mm hex and some small Torx round the sides.

The T45 is used to remove the shocks/lock carrier.

Front hubs are 17mm hex, and you will need half inch or larger drive for these as above as they're super tight.
ScottR

Well, it's a nice day for it. About minus five thousand here in blue skied North Wales! Impatiently waiting for my mate to turn up at his unit as he's been held up at an MOT station.

Let's hope I still have some feeling in my fingers by the time he arrives.
ScottR

5.5 hours into 'Project Thunder' up to now. Had to call it a night as I've got plans, but any longer and my fingers would shatter in this cold.

For a totally mechanically challenged person such as myself, there have been some curve balls thrown which have cost me dearly timewise. And it all seemed so simple when I was reading through all the various write-ups. Thanks to Mikey-s for providing some much appreciated phone support!

So, current status is that the engine bay is mostly ready for action, bar a few more puzzles such as what the hell to do with the power steering stuff, how the aircon  hardpipes will get tucked away and some other bits. Hub bolts are detached. Interior torn apart to gain access to shifter mechanism.

Tasks for the next instalment include undoing prop bolts, engine mounts, removing exhaust and lifting the engine!!

Broken bits so far include a few stupid clips, the electrical connector which connects to the expansion tank and a snapped radiator!!! The lower radiator hose just did not want to come off. Pics tomorrow!!
Aragorn

Just disconnect and drain the PAS. It probably could benefit from new fluid anyway.

Radiators not cheap!
ScottR

Aragorn wrote:
Just disconnect and drain the PAS. It probably could benefit from new fluid anyway.

Radiators not cheap!


Tell me about it. I only bought this one brand new  three years ago!

Where do you drain the PS fluid from?
Aragorn

Just pull the hoses off with a suitable container to collect the fluid.
ScottR

Can't see where I can pull the hoses off. As far as I could see, the PAS hoses go from the reservoir into the guts of the engine.

Think I'll attempt to write up an 'idiots guide' once I've got past all the unknowns for the benefit off other numptys like me.
pjbRs

Take some pics as you go, respect for getting stuck in.
ScottR

pjbs wrote:
Take some pics as you go, respect for getting stuck in.


Taken plenty of pics in the hope that a proper writeup may warrant a move to the Projects & Builds forum!
mikey-s

Scott, there's a PAS connection under the accordian hose area.  You'll need a couple of spanners to undo it.
audimad100

when we did Reg's we drained it down and disconnected the PAS, Reg is going to be replacing all the vital fluids when we put it back in
jimbo

disconnect the pas cooler pipe at the front of the engine, 2 jubilee clips
Aragorn

Scott: Theres basically three pipes of interest.

1 goes from the reservoir to the pump, just disconnect this from the pump and and let it drain.

2 goes from the pump to the rack. Its a really big fat thing, perhaps an inch in diameter. Just disconnect this from the pump and move it out the way.

3 is the return line from the rack, this goes to the small loop of metal that sits infront of the radiator, then back to the reservoir. Disconnect the loop, and remove the reservoir, tuck the pipe from the rack out the way.
mikey-s

Aragorn wrote:

2 goes from the pump to the rack. Its a really big fat thing, perhaps an inch in diameter. Just disconnect this from the pump and move it out the way.


On the S4 this is routed under the intake manifold, so if you wanted to disconnect it from the pump you would have to remove the inlet manifold.
Instead it has a connection at the rear of the engine, behind the manifold under the accordian hose.
Aragorn

ah cool, do that then!
sis200sx

i am sorry i cant offer any words of advice having never pulled an engine out of one of these before but good luck and hope it all goes well good on you chap but i know one thing when i do mine i will be buying an air compressor for the air tools lol but i think thats more to the fact that im lazy lol good luck mate.

regards si
ScottR

Managed to live without any power tools up til now.  The tool I have been most impressed with was the huge piece of scaffold stuck over a 17mm allen key.  Got the hub bolts out with the greatest of ease!

Got some excellent news too.  My mate and the two other guys who rent the unit (all car nuts) decided that they were going to buy a 2-post lift late yesterday.  It arrives in a couple of weeks, so should at least be in place for when (if) the engine goes back in.

Here's how the car currently looks.  


Doesn't spilt coolant look a lot like blood on my camera!!

Next installment in a couple of weekends...
ScottR

Forgot to mention,  I was kind of expecting to see some oil from the turbos in the intercoolers as I think they could be in bad shape (hence the pull).

This was all I found.  Literally one drop came out.  Not too bad at all eh?


It's certainly encouraging I hope.  
Ash25

Scott, hows the engine pull going then?

Ash
ScottR

I pick up where I left off next weekend.  Still quite a lot to do, but hopefully i'm on the home straight now.

Still need to drain PS fluid, disconnect (+) battery terminal, undo driveshafts and propshaft, disconnect exhaust from DP's, undo heater core pipes, undo engine/box mounts and disconnect clutch slave cylinder.  Then, I think it will be ready for some brute force!

Just realised my last couple of pics aren't showing because i've moved them to a seperate 'Project Thunder' folder on Photobucket.  Here they are again:

Only a wee bit of oil from intercooler (and oddly from the 'quiet' side)... not as bad as I was expecting!

'Blood and guts':
mikey-s

What's that car parked next to yours??
ScottR

mikey-s wrote:
What's that car parked next to yours??


That's my mate's Lorinser 500SL.  Sounds like a Nascar at full chat!!

http://www.performancelegends.co.uk/stockinfo.php?stockno=57
ScottR

Oh, forgot from my 'to do' list that i've also got to take off the viscous fan, belt, remove aircon compressor and hang it out the way.

Think that's all that's needed.  Bugger... it's going to be a busy weekend!!
sis200sx

ScottR wrote:
I pick up where I left off next weekend.  Still quite a lot to do, but hopefully i'm on the home straight now.

Still need to drain PS fluid, disconnect (+) battery terminal, undo driveshafts and propshaft, disconnect exhaust from DP's, undo heater core pipes, undo engine/box mounts and disconnect clutch slave cylinder.  Then, I think it will be ready for some brute force!

Just realised my last couple of pics aren't showing because i've moved them to a seperate 'Project Thunder' folder on Photobucket.  Here they are again:

Only a wee bit of oil from intercooler (and oddly from the 'quiet' side)... not as bad as I was expecting!

'Blood and guts':



looks like the front end is on the floor lol
ScottR

Phew, what a day!

Spent another 5 hours crawling round under the car today, hindered by a Force 5 hangover. Not pleasant! Wasted a hell of a lot of time by not having the ideal tools, although I was smart enough to fill my mate's new snap-on toolbox with all the tools we have and organised the spanners, sockets, etc. That helped a hell of a lot.

Glad to say I haven't broken anything today, but did come across more problems. Front brakes seem to be sticking, so I had a nightmare getting the driveshaft bolts. Had to use a pry bar and a breaker bar to rotate each wheel. Have now removed all of the driveshaft and big hub bolts, but still can't pull the driveshafts out. They don't seem to want to come away from the hub.
Getting the heatshield away from the back of the gearbox was a ballache as well, even with the right tools. I was struggling for space as I only have the car up on axle stands at their lowest height. Would have been much easier with a bit more room.
Can't for the life of me work out how to remove the aircon compressor. I've taken the 2 front bolts out, but can't see another to take off. One of those bolts was a right pain because the ratchet had broken on my 13mm flat spanner and there's no room for a socket. Took forever!
With the aircon compressor still in place, I also can't get to the right engine mount very easily. Need a 13mm deep socket... and guess which bit is missing from the toolbox!!  Gaaaaarghhhh!!!
Final hurdle for today was the last straw, and saw me spitting my dummy out and calling it a day. Gearbox mounts are a real PITA. Spent ages trying to loosen the nuts, only to notice that the bolt was just spinning. It better play ball tomorrow or I'll swear at the car very loudly!

I have a hell of a lot of respect for all the other DIYers out there. This has been a frustrating job!

Can't be much more to do tomorrow. It's the final push. Once the mounts are undone, it should be good to go. Oh bugger, just remembered the clutch slave cylinder. Bet that won't give up without a fight!!

So in summary: Help!
1) How do I get aircon compressor off?
2) How do I remove the driveshafts?
3) Should I try harder to remove the exhaust, or should it just slip out fairly easily when the engine moves forwards?
4) Any hints for the slave cylinder?
ScottR

Oh, and I took a lot more photos for when I do my idiots guide write-up!
mikey-s

Stick with it Scott, you're doing fine.

1)  Leave it on the engine, undo the hoses on the drivers side of the engine.  Your A/C still isn't charged is it??
2)  Take out the top pinch bolt, put the steering on a full lock, screw the hub nut in a few turns and gently tap it out of the hub.
3)  I'd disconnect the exhaust, it may put excess stress on the downpipes when you try to pull the engine.
4)  Remove the 6mm allen bolt and pull the slave cylinder out of the way.  Saves having to bleed it and it pissing brake fluid everywhere..
MarkB

I dropped my subframe. Made life so much easier. Driveshafts come straight out as does the engine.

I left my exhaust connected and pulled it. Did break the flexis but then mine are fit for the bin.

I also removed the slave when the emgine was on the way out
mikey-s

Scott, the front engine mount nuts are under the mounts, not on top, so the A/C compressor isn't in the way.

Also, undo the two 13mm bolts on each gearbox mount, it's much easier than the large nut & bolt.
ScottR

mikey-s wrote:
Scott, the front engine mount nuts are under the mounts, not on top, so the A/C compressor isn't in the way.

Also, undo the two 13mm bolts on each gearbox mount, it's much easier than the large nut & bolt.


It's the aircon hard lines which are causing me a headache, not the compressor itself. Well, maybe it's all of last nights booze.

If I just take those two 13mm nuts off, will the big one just go up through the subframe?
mikey-s

ScottR wrote:
mikey-s wrote:
Scott, the front engine mount nuts are under the mounts, not on top, so the A/C compressor isn't in the way.

Also, undo the two 13mm bolts on each gearbox mount, it's much easier than the large nut & bolt.


It's the aircon hard lines which are causing me a headache, not the compressor itself. Well, maybe it's all of last nights booze.

If I just take those two 13mm nuts off, will the big one just go up through the subframe?


You can either leave the hard lines on or take them off, no real difference either way.

The rear mounts will go up through the subframe after you remove the two 13mm bolts, but watch them as you start to pull the engine as they get caught up very easily.
DavidT

Moved to the 'Projects and Builds; forum and re-titled. Let me know if you want to change the title though
ScottR

Yay for me!



Thanks David, I'm honoured.
DavidT

ScottR wrote:
Yay for me!



Thanks David, I'm honoured.


You're worthy
ScottR

"It will only take an hour today mate, two hours tops!" said a confident and optimistic Scott.

6 hours later...

Never again! Too tired to provide a detailed write-up tonight, but I will again reiterate that this isn't a task to be undertaken by the faint hearted.

Got the turbos boxed up and ready to be shipped out. Looks like a tiny bit of compressor damage to some of the blades. A bit like when your razor goes blunt. I'm guessing this could be enough to cause screeching when turning at over 100,000rpm!

Thanks again to Mikey-s and Jimbo for tech support.
jimbo

you got it out in the end then . nice one  
s4marsh

ScottR wrote:
Never again! Too tired to provide a detailed write-up tonight, but I will again reiterate that this isn't a task to be undertaken by the faint hearted.


I'm glad you said that because i keep getting stupid ideas to do my own work when the fairy comes knocking, after reading many build threads and looking at pictures thinking hmmm i can do that it looks easy...

i'm brave enough to attempt it but know i would end up with too many spare parts left over, no plasters and a huge maze of wires and hozes that i forgot to mark up for future reference.
ScottR

jimbo wrote:
you got it out in the end then . nice one  


Only took an hour of frantic pulling, pushing, lifting, dropping, wiggling and swearing, wondering what was preventing the engine from coming forward. It was only the fecking engine earth strap I'd forgotten to undo. Approx 5 seconds later the finger tight nut was off and the engine was free to come out.
audimad100

if you have a bit of general knowledge and thrown a spanner or two around a workshop then have a go. defo do your research as Scott did. take plenty of pictures on your camera phone for future reference. its not that difficult to pull one of these motors. ok we had a ramp to pull Reg's engine which is a massive + and saves loads of time we had his out in 4hrs. if you are near any other forum members that you can call on for help that will be a big advantage, us Cornish boys all rallied round to help Reg, (was a good excuse for a bit of a meet) and will do the same when it comes to putting it back in.
there are quite a few guys on here that have pulled there own motors that im sure will be able to help with there own experiences and tips for a successful pull.

give it a go, whats the worst that can happen you will have a load of stuff to sell when you put it all back in again (when you cant find a home for it)  

great Thread Scott keep up the good work mate
ScottR

Bit of a catch up.

So, where did I go wrong this weekend?  I guess I should highlight the stumbling blocks which caught me out and how I got around them for the benefit of anyone else looking to do this.

In an earlier post after Saturday's fun, I asked 4 (daft) questions:
1) How do I get aircon compressor off?
2) How do I remove the driveshafts?
3) Should I try harder to remove the exhaust, or should it just slip out fairly easily when the engine moves forwards?
4) Any hints for the slave cylinder?

Answers:
1) There is indeed a 3rd bolt holding the compressor in place... but it's a bugger to find!! (to be honest, most things were when you're lying on your back on concrete and the car is about 6 inches away from your head!)
It was right at the back, and looking back on it, I just don't see how you could access it whilst the engine mounts are seated.

As you may be able to see from this other angle, you need to move the turbo-intercooler pipe out of the way to be able to see it.


2) Mike's suggestion was indeed a sensible way to do it: Turn the steering to full lock, then pop the top pinch bolt on the suspension upright (I was relieved to say mine came out with no fuss, but many posts on here suggest this can be a nightmare).  I got the passenger side out no bother.  Whilst I was working on something else, my mate Bryn said he would sort the drivers side.  Anyway, we forgot to turn the wheel to the opposite lock and we struggled to get that driveshaft out.  "We'll deal with it in a minute, let me just finish this first." I said.  BAD IDEA!!!  Long story short, we forgot to come back to it and left the driveshaft there.  It wasn't until after about 30 mins of trying to pull the engine and finding it wasn't moving did we then remember we hadn't removed the driveshaft!  We had thought the reason the engine wasn't coming out was due to the downpipes catching on the DTS.  More on this saga later...
Back to the driveshaft.  We had now yanked the engine around so much that the driveshaft was pinned between the hub, the subframe and the engine mount.  No matter how much pushing and pulling, we couldn't get the engine backwards.  Balls!  In the end we had to remove the steering rack from the upright.

Even then with everything out of the way, the driveshaft was still wedged pretty tight.  Thankfully we had a 3ft 'persuasion bar' close to hand.  We were finally able to get the driveshaft out.  Could have saved ourselves a lot of time, sweat and swears if we had just sorted this in the first place rather than deciding to "come back to it".  A valuable lesson learned for the rest of the job - If you start something, make sure you finish it before wandering onto something else!

3) Piece of piss in the end.  I was thinking I could take ii off without removing the exhaust, but after a quick pep talk from Mikey-s, it was coming off!  If the car is on a ramp it's probably easy to push the exhaust backwards, but with less than a foot between the floor and the car I didn't have the choice.  Unbolted the rear exhaust hanger, then pryed the other two hangers (one by the backbox, the other by the rear diff mount) off.  Only took a gentle tug and a twist for the exhaust to slide off the downpipes.  It was nice to have an easy job after all the earlier woes.

4) My biggest problem here wasn't just that I didn't know where to find the clutch slave cylinder, I didn't actually know what it looks like, so I was at a bit of a loss.  A write-up i'd seen online suggests to remove the 6mm Allen bolt from the top, Mike and Jimbo both said they did theirs from underneath the car.  Again, I was hugely disadvantaged here.  This is what I was looking at.  (note the hole in the bellhousing - caused a bit of panic at first, but i've been informed this is normal - phew!)


After a few hours (sorry for the pestering phonecalls Jim and Mike), I lost my rag and decided the engine was coming out by fair means or foul, even if it meant a world of pain - brake fluid everywhere, knackered hardlines to the clutch slave and a bitch of a job to bleed the clutch.  At that point, I was past caring, after all, I don't even know that the engine is definitely going back in!  

"WHERE ARE YOU YOU HORRIBLE LITTLE ****?"

But... a miracle!  Bryn's patience prevailed.  We had just been unable to see the bolt because the engine hadn't been pulled enough.  

When we were finally able to pull the engine out a little further, maybe about 8 inches away in total from the firewall, all was revealed!

I still don't see how anyone can get to this from underneath the car.
One wobbly socket later and the cylinder was off.  Actually no, i'm making this sound too easy.  It was tough!  Well, it was with the tools we had anyway.  We took it in turns to get at it with a wobby socket as it knackered your wrist after a few turns.  It was nearing the end of a long day.  Once it was off, I used some zip-ties to hold it against one of the firewall sensor clips.  Didn't want to risk knackering the hard line by catching it on the gearbox after all that!

Unfortunately, the engine still wouldn't budge. :'(

"It must be the downpipes catching on the DTS".  Damn, another setback!  The only allen bit we had to remove the cross member of the DTS was chewed up, and as I've placed the axle stands on the DTS itself, removing it was a no go.  We had to take the downpipes off.  Infact we only managed to get the pass side downpipe off from 'up top'.  The bottom bolt was too difficult to get to on the drivers side, but we thought with the other 3 out of the way, we could at least twist the downpipe a bit if needed.

Well, another tug... and rage was building.  Nothing!  "Ah, we haven't done the heater matrix hoses".  Bit of a PITA to get these two big thick hoses off.  I did the drivers side, Bryn got to work on the pass side.  Once my hose was popped off, I decided to have a final check underneath the engine to check that there was nothing else which could possibly hold it in place after these were off...

Warning! Do these checks before removing the heater matrix hoses... or expect to receive a shower!  As soon as Bryn got the 2nd hose off, I guess it must have released a hydrolock in the matrix.  There was a lot of coolant in there!  

Finally, after my very detailed inspection all around the engine to make sure there was nothing left to stop it coming out, we gave it the final heave ho.  Ok, the penultimate heave ho.  It still wouldn't budge.  Bryn decided it was the drivers side downpipe still catching the DTS, and that made sense, the engine did seem to be caught up on that side.  He got under the car, lifted the downpipe and I pulled.  Fail.  We swapped places.  Fail.  I'd noticed that the downpipes are so light, they couldn't possibly be catching on the DTS enough to stop the whole engine.  We stood back scratching our heads... is coolant itchy?
Then, as if by magic, my eyes subconsciously focused in on the culprit:



But, it was all worth it in the end....  TA DA!




It was getting late, we were both pissed off, and the turbos still had to come off.  At least we could finally make a competition out of something.  The turbo removal race.  He won.
I was doing the passenger side turbo, and without the right tools, I found it nearly impossible to get the final allen bolt holding the turbo to the manifold.  The one closest to the block.  Thankfully Bryn is a bit more innovative than me and ended up using a long Allen bit with a 10mm spanner to turn it.  The job was done.


I gave the turbos a quick look over.  There is very little shaft play, but I was able to push one enough to make the blade touch the casing, although not sure if that is normal because there is no oil pressure?  But the impellors looked fine, wastegates were in good nick and there was no sign of the blades having actually hit the casing when in operation, ie: outside edges of the blades were undamaged and no scraping marks on the casing.  I did however notice a tiny bit of compressor blade damage on some of the leading edges.  

I've sent off a few close-up photos to a few refurb outfits and they say that the blades look fine and the damage is from 'dusting', ie: particles which have made it through the air filter and hit the fast moving blades causing damage.  Turbo Dynamics have suggested the screeching noise I get is more likely to be caused by an issue with the bearings.  Thinking back, i'm wondering if the noise started after I once went over a humpback bridge too quickly and the car bottomed out on the sump.  I remember Viper managed to kill some turbos doing something similar.

Anyway, turbos get sent off this weekend for a proper inspection, and if a quick (cheap) refurb will get them ship shape again, you'll all have Project Thunder Round 2 to look forwards to.  

At some point in the next month, I need to get back over to the car to start cleaning up the engine.  You may have noticed in some of the photos the complete underside of the engine is covered with oil.  It's been like this for as long as I can remember, and no one has managed to find the culprit.  Also needs the cambelt doing, new engine mounts (hoping this would cure the drivetrain rocking), will take a look at the clutch, possibly a rocker cover gasket (one of the photos appears to show a bit of a leak), diagnose aircon leak and get the fecker working again after 3 years of miserable hot summers journeys with the windows down, replace the radiator I broke earlier, a paper filter(wonder if dusting still occurs with these?), replace vac lines and hoses... the list goes on.  So much for saving money by doing the work myself!
buzzard

Great work Scott
frazered

impressive stuff Scott - you seem to be handling it well
DavidT

Top notch words and pic's Scott

I'm so glad you've done it and that you will put it back together your way, and it will then be: yours
ScottR

DavidT wrote:
Top notch words and pic's Scott

I'm so glad you've done it and that you will put it back together your way, and it will then be: yours


I'm still at the mercy of the turbo refurb cost, so it's not 100% going to be a happy ending just yet.

I've also started to put together a parts list. So far I guesstimate the bits and pieces I'll need (inc. refurb) could come to £1600. Then I have some bits and pieces on the wish list (aircon, clutch, oil cooler, remap, etc.) which would add another £1800 or so. I've also spent over a grand on some other bits which I'd love to fit to make the car top notch, which unfortunately I may have to sell to fund the 'need' list items.
mikey-s

What a good write up Scott.  Once you get your head around where all the bits go it'll become a much easier job. Plus it sounds like you're struggling with a poor selection of tools, I've been there and done that, and it ain't fun.  A good selection of tools is a must if you want to make the job easy.

Stick with it, and good luck with the turbos!
ScottR

The costs keep on rising!

During the pull, I noticed my front brakes were really tight.  I had presumed it was just the pads catching the discs as they had rusted over badly from the car sitting for 6 weeks or so.  I'd first noticed it when undoing the driveshaft bolts, as you need to rotate each wheel 180 degrees to get access to the other 3 driveshaft bolts on each side.  When I was doing it, I had to use a breaker bar and also a pry bar to force the wheels around.

Later on when I removed the wheels, I noticed a little 'foaming' around one of the brake pipe unions:


I'd guessed a small leak that I would have to go back to.  Anyway, my mate needed to move the car yesterday and went to push it, but it was stuck solid.  He ended up taking the calipers and discs off (I managed to get an RS4 set for a reasonable price off eBay, so they would have been getting fitted anyway).  He's found both front calipers to be seized.  So they will need a rebuild and new seals, etc.

Could this have caused the fluid to be forced out at the pipe union as above?  It was the same both sides.

Adding to parts list:
Calliper seals
Get discs skimmed
New B7 pads
New fluid?
Replacement brake pipes?

Just hope that one of my two sets of calliper carriers is the right one for B7 discs!!  
s4osh

great work followed by bad news. heads up and push on
where in north wales are you ?? im in Bethesda close to anglesey  end of north wales
ScottR

The car is over near Wrexham.

She's a Welsh girl though.  Had lived all her life in Anglesey before I bought her.   Nothing like salty sea air and racetrack like roads to totally f**k a car up!!

Wish i'd known that before I bought it.
RS4Jules

Sorry to hear your having some issues,but massive respect for tackling
such a big job  
ScottR

Turbo Dynamics have come back today to give me the verdict on 'the squealers'.

They had found evidence of slight wear on one of the shafts. Even though the wear was ever so minute (thousandths of an inch), it was enough to allow slight contact between a compressor wheel against the casing. Apparently the shaft wear on it's own may not have been sufficient to make this happen, but they also found evidence of scale (corrosion) on the casing. I asked him to dumb that down for me... The explanation for dummies is: the casing would look furry under a microscope, but due to the tolerances involved in turbos, it was just enough to allow the wheel and furry casing to come into contact. The scale is apparently a normal thing, much more prevalent in the marine turbos they see. It's nothing to worry about, and their blasting of the casings would sort this out anyway.

The good news for me is that the damage is so minute, the compressor wheels are both reusable. The 'dusting' is also nothing out of the ordinary and will be sorted by effectively filing down the leading edges of the wheels which will help them when it comes to balancing. Again, all part of a normal refurb. Fascinating stuff.

And the important bit... it will only cost £600+vat to get some lovely quiet turbos back which will be capable of handling more boost than they did previously.

My total costs are now looking at around £2k to get it back together (ignoring the grand of parts already accrued). With a further £1500-£2k if I wanted to make it perfect. F'ing money pit!!

I need to make a very important decision here...
MathiasS

ScottR wrote:
Turbo Dynamics have come back today to give me the verdict on 'the squealers'.

They had found evidence of slight wear on one of the shafts. Even though the wear was ever so minute (thousandths of an inch), it was enough to allow slight contact between a compressor wheel against the casing. Apparently the shaft wear on it's own may not have been sufficient to make this happen, but they also found evidence of scale (corrosion) on the casing. I asked him to dumb that down for me... The explanation for dummies is: the casing would look furry under a microscope, but due to the tolerances involved in turbos, it was just enough to allow the wheel and furry casing to come into contact. The scale is apparently a normal thing, much more prevalent in the marine turbos they see. It's nothing to worry about, and their blasting of the casings would sort this out anyway.

The good news for me is that the damage is so minute, the compressor wheels are both reusable. The 'dusting' is also nothing out of the ordinary and will be sorted by effectively filing down the leading edges of the wheels which will help them when it comes to balancing. Again, all part of a normal refurb. Fascinating stuff.

And the important bit... it will only cost £600+vat to get some lovely quiet turbos back which will be capable of handling more boost than they did previously.

My total costs are now looking at around £2k to get it back together (ignoring the grand of parts already accrued). With a further £1500-£2k if I wanted to make it perfect. F'ing money pit!!

I need to make a very important decision here...


I feel you!

I started my build with 2-2.5k in spare , ended up selling my Mercedes for 7k and now ALL of that money is in the S too  
ScottR

I started mine with £0 spare and have a stag do, wedding, honeymoon and house stuff to fork out for over the next 4 months.

Hmmm... sell the parts for £££'s and have a decent wedding, stag and honeymoon or fork out £££'s for a 12 year old car that will never ever be worth what I've spent on it and continue to cost money for as long as I own it.

Justifying keeping the car goes against every logical thought I have, and yet I'm still considering it. This financially fatal attraction makes me hate the car even more.
ScottR

Tomorrow is tidy up day. Going to be cleaning the engine and bay up, going to find the source(s) of the oil leakage, inspect the clutch, gear linkages and anything else I can think of. Also going to be replacing the EGT sensors, removing the engine mounts and inspecting the gearbox mounts. And if I get time, I'll be replacing the radiator I broke.

It's going to be yet another busy day, but hopefully nothing too taxing. I certainly won't be short of stuff to do.
ScottR

Not a very exciting day, and as always, didn't manage to get half of the stuff done that I had planned to do.  Didn't help that my car had been moved and wedged between stuff and the engine was also blocked in so I had to work on that on the floor.

I think I found where the oil is leaking from, however it's not something i'm capable of sorting myself, so think i'm going to have to live with it.  It's been like this for at least 3 years, so pretty sure nothing is going to go bang (unless anyone has any words of wisdom they wish to bestow upon me).  It looks to be the gasket immediately under the 'V'.  You can see a bit of the sealant coming loose here.



So I got on with the cleaning...

Started off... ewww dirty (check the top of the sump)!



By the end of the afternoon, you could eat your dinner off it.  The AWE DTS looks like new!



Ok, not quite concourse, but probably shaved 18kg of weight in oil and dirt from over the years.  It was surprising to see how much crap gets trapped in the subframe.

Also used my steam cleaner to flush out my intercoolers and pipework.  Got carried away firing steam into the intercoolers... it was fun watching the plumes of 'smoke' gushing out the other end.  

So all in all, a bit of a wasted day.  Managed to sort out a few niggles and do some prep work.  Also need to review the N249 delete.  When I got to the pipework, I realised that none of it actually appeared to be connected to anything other than the one pipe which goes to the vac reservoir in the pass wing.  But seeing as how I couldn't find anything else going to the vac reservoir, I thought i'd just junk it all.  For those of you who haven't seen the crazy maze of pipework on the back of the 2.7T, this is for you!




Seeing as I had some time to kill, it was actually quite enjoyable following the route of all the various pipes, hoses and wires and trying to make sense of what they do and/or where they go.  Can someone please explain why there appears to be a vac hose on the top of the engine which goes towards the fuel tank?? It's the 3rd hose which routes over the airbox which attaches to a big black plastic thingy (and from there it splits and goes through two separate one-way valves).
mikey-s

Good work Scott, it'll soon be back together.  It looks as though your main leak in this area could be the oil pressure switch. Pull the boot off itand see if it's full of oil.

ScottR

I did that as I had suspected it could have been the culprit, but it looked fine. There is also oil on both sides and the front of the engine.

It's hard to see from the photos, but the engine above that gasket didn't look oily. Just seems to be everything below it. Wondering what could have caused that gasket to 'blow out'.
ScottR

Ok, i've been getting a little carried away with the shopping list.  What started off as a DIY pull to save money has ended up costing me more than I had imagined!  Reckon this little lot will come to about 50% of the value of the car.  Ridiculous!!!

Bought so far:
Radiator (to replace the one I broke)
Eibach Pro Street Coilovers
B7 Brake Discs + pads
034 Track Density engine mounts
Pair of new EGT sensors
RS4 oil cooler + sandwich plate
Turbos refurbed
Cambelt kit + stat + water pump

Still on the shopping list:
Rear suspension top mounts
Copper washers
Gaskets/seals
Worm screw clips galore
Fluids
4 wheel alignment
MRC re-re-remap
Aircon leak to be diagnosed and repaired
Clutch maybe (will see how current one looks)
Water Injection

Jobs left to do on top of fitting all the above:
Replace upper sump sealant
Remove main cats (undecided whether to just cut them open and get rid of the cats or replace whoe things with pipe)
Refit cluster
Replace caliper carriers on the front to B7
Skim discs

This car is going to be vintage by the time I've got it back on the road!!
ScottR

I'm getting braver by the day. But I think I've just gone a step too far...

My fiance leaves for a week long holiday to Miami today. Given that our wedding and honeymoon are less than three months away, I think she'll have my balls in a blender when she arrives at her hotel to find a small box of bits for the car awaiting her.

It's only about 3kg. Shouldn't put her too far over her luggage allowance on the way back.
It's about time she chucked out some of her clothes/shoes anyway!
BennyBoo

ScottR wrote:
I'm getting braver by the day. But I think I've just gone a step too far...

My fiance leaves for a week long holiday to Miami today. Given that our wedding and honeymoon are less than three months away, I think she'll have my balls in a blender when she arrives at her hotel to find a small box of bits for the car awaiting her.

It's only about 3kg. Shouldn't put her too far over her luggage allowance on the way back.
It's about time she chucked out some of her clothes/shoes anyway!


That's brill!

Good Luck
MarkB

LOL. I like your style.

I have some parts arriving today via suitcase courier.
mikey-s

That's quality Scott, I like your style!
ScottR

Well they say every project has it's highs and lows, this weekend Project Thunder has hit a low.

It's taken me approx 12 hours to:
1) Remove Alternator
2) Remove starter
3) Remove gearbox (mashing 2 allen bolts in the process, taking 20 times as long to get out)
4) Lift engine with a hoist
5) Attach engine to engine stand
6) Realise that 2 of the 4 holes I used to attach the engine stand to are actually on the upper sump
7) Refit one of them - there was nowhere suitable for the 4th 'arm'.  Had to use a strap from the engine hoist around one of the pulleys for extra support.
8 ) Clean more crud off the block (mostly under where the alternator and starter were)
9) Remove oil pan - lots of bolts!
10) Panic when looking at the guts of my lovely engine
11) Remove oil pump cover
12) Remove piece of metal holding oil pipes in place and....  BUGGER!!!  Drop it into the engine!
13) Remove upper sump
14) Clean everything.  I was so terrified of any silicon falling into the engine, I ended up picking out all the old 'doughnuts' of silicon which were stuck in the bolt holes with needle nose pliers.  Took forever!

It was late on Saturday by then, and I didn't want to do the new silicon 'gasket' whilst I was tired.  This job requires a very steady hand.

Sunday morning I get back to it:
15) More bloody cleaning... I want to be sure this seal is going to hold!
16) After a final swipe of brake cleaner, I was ready to take the challenge.  A 2-3mm wide bead of silicon all around the engine face.
17) Replace upper sump
18 ) Fit all of the bolts up, watching silicon squeeze out of the sandwiched metal parts with a careful eye.
19) Wipe away a little bit of sealant which has made it's way inside before it causes any damage!
20) Nip up the bolts again.
21) Oil pan on
22) Another load of bolts.  Getting sick of bolts by this stage!
23) Tidy up.  This took a long time as I'm a messy worker.

So there we have it.  What should have been a couple of hours job took me best part of two days.  Lame.

The most significant discovery over the weekend was how much play there was in the Dual Mass Flywheel.  I measured about 22-25mm play in it.  Trying to establish if that is too much or not.  Jimbo says 10mm is the specified tolerance, but i've seen elsewhere someone claiming it to be 30mm.  Anyone know for sure?  But even if that isn't goosed (which it's looking reasonably likely that it is), the flywheel face is blue, the friction plate is screwed and the pressure plate is ruined too.  More bloody expense!

So now looks like I might have to sell some of the parts I have accrued in order to buy a new flywheel.  Certainly not where I wanted to be, but have already massively overspent and there are still more bits to get sorted before it's back on the road with fire in it's belly!



Ooh, and yes, I did finally find the part which I lost back at number 12)!

Photos to follow...
Jules

God loves a trier ... [allegedly]
audimad100

good work Scott, stick with it mate. you will have it all going back in before you know it    
Ghost

Jules wrote:
God loves a trier ... [allegedly]


God?  

Anyway keep up the good work Scott.  
ScottR

As promised, here are the photos from the latest instalment over the weekend.

Gearbox and engine part ways:


Marks on clutch to allow me to measure flywheel float.  Too much


Let's see the state of the clutch...




Then with the flywheel off, we can see more evidence of why i'm undertaking the upper sump sealant replacement:


Ready for surgery:


Mess!


And with the upper sump removed, we see the clearly failed seal:



Bit of elbow grease later and we have:



No photos of the finished article, but rest assured, I used a lot of this (I liked the brand):
jimbo

on it  
jimbo

has that thing arrived yet?  
MarkB

ScottR wrote:



By looking at the state of that clutch I wouldn't have used that flywheel when it was fitted!
ScottR

jimbo wrote:
has that thing arrived yet?  


Arrived today, thanks Jim.  
ScottR

MarkB wrote:


By looking at the state of that clutch I wouldn't have used that flywheel when it was fitted!


Isn't that pic from the pressure plate side of the friction plate rather than the flywheel side?
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