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MarkB

Stage 0.1 and beyond...

Some of you may have seen how badly my car performed at VMAX. Only managed 151mph

The car was running an AmD custom map and Milltek catback exhaust. It's been on 3 rolling roads over the last few years and all times it gave ~300bhp @ about 4.5K before over fueling. On the road checking lambda it never went into the same state of fuel and all looked fine. Apart from a FATS time at best of 5.5 seconds, not the best and points to about 300bhp.

The sad thing is, that FATS time wasn't with the map at normal settings, I'd advanced the timing 3.75deg which knocked half a second off the original time!

Doing this gave me inspiration to make a few changes to some other adaptation channels and I thought the ideal opportunity would be VMAX. So armed with laptop I set about logging the engine whilst running down the runway. First thing I notice... under heavy load the engine starts to over fuel at high rpm. Just like on the rollers!  I made a few tweaks but things didn't look to be getting any better so called it a day.

Well enough is enough, the time has come to ditch the AmD map. So, stage 0, return the car the standard.

I was lead to believe when I bought the car that it had been serial programmed but I had a hunch this might not be true. Out with the ECU and sure enough a nicely soldered chip holder and chip.



Hmm, so some options. Do I get a stock ECU to put in the car or can I get a chip to put in place of the current one.

Having seen viperbl swapping chips at the rolling road day I thought that must be the easiest option. My ECU is ready to take a new holder so seemed the sensible option.



Order placed and a few days later fresh from Germany I have a holder and some chips  Thanks to Rich, I now have a chip flashed with stock code.



The next thing was a little bit of a surprise to me. I thought the car would feel gutless on standard code but I have to say it doesn't! It feels smoother and I've lost the surge I used to get when the turbo's came in. It's a much more linear response now and didn't feel much slower.  This has now been confirmed by a FATS time of 6.66 seconds.

6.66 seconds isn't going to set the world on fire but it's not a bad time for a standard car and what I've now found is that the MAF is reading very high. This was impossible to see with the AmD chip installed as the MAF values were always amplified. So I now have a car that with standard code does a FATS run in 6.66 seconds and has either a defective MAF or maybe a boost leak?

Having used my very best powers of persuasion Rich has agreed to help me tune my car. Not sure how easy this is going to be as we're on different islands but it should be fun!

Firstly we need to get the MAF readings looking good on the stock code then we move onto Stage 0.1

I must say here that knowing now that there is still a problem with the MAF values the car may have run allot better with the AmD chip than it was. But I'll never know now...

More updates to follow soon
bluebrakes

A good read.
Nice to see some experimenting!

Keep us updated...
H8CAK

Were have to call you the tinker man
cool-surf!

Perfect timing to start with a clean slate.

Now you can really see what your cars upto
si_hill

You must be the first person on here to tune their car to go slower  
Stigter

How long will it take for a member to come talk about being the top ten tuner in the world and burn your thread!

Awesome work though chaps.  
H714DHG

would be easier to buy a flashing tool rather than mess about with chips, more likely to damage the ECU swapping chips all the time.
Adam

Good luck Mark, with all the parts you have in your Aladin's cove of a garage it's about time it started to go quicker.....and look wider
Ghost

How dare you start tuning your ECU yourself this is absolutely outrageous and to also turn Rich away from the path of Dutch devotion is also outrageous.

You are a very bad influence and you know you will blow up your motor don't you!!!
S4

I am now waiting for a guy from Belgium to chip (get it) in.


Darren
dummi

H714DHG wrote:
would be easier to buy a flashing tool rather than mess about with chips, more likely to damage the ECU swapping chips all the time.


is that not rather expensive for tuning one car


good on you Mark, keep posting how you get on at Viper Customs South Island  
confusionhunter

actually, I tuned the my old S4 slower.... It had a qst mtm map alledgedly and I swapped it fir a std ecu and I felt the car drove much better. Althought it wasnt as quick (lower boost) there was slight hesitation after every gear change on the modded map. All was well when I got the MRC map though.
ScottR

I guess this means the K04 upgrade has been put beyond the back burner then?  
rik

Now this is a thread I'm going to enjoy following.
tdiquattro

Is yours a facelift car on a D box Mark? If so I have an MTM chip you could try (plug in with the gold pins as per pic) if you want for a laugh to get another comparison.

Also what are you using to log the changes - ECUX ? and what did you use to alter the timing?

Great project, great way to learn about the car too.
CliveH

Good luck with this Mark!
S4

Yes I too will be following the "Manx Motors" tuning kit.

Mark, I take it you will be looking for a dual wideband kit, for when it goes open loop? innovate lm2  is good.

I have a brand new LM1 unused, but it is only a single.


Darren
MarkB

Thanks for the positive comments guys.

tdiquattro wrote:
Is yours a facelift car on a D box Mark? If so I have an MTM chip you could try (plug in with the gold pins as per pic) if you want for a laugh to get another comparison.

Also what are you using to log the changes - ECUX ? and what did you use to alter the timing?

Great project, great way to learn about the car too.


Yes the car is on a D ecu. Thanks for the offer of the chip but I doubt I'll be able to use it. Stage 0.1 will be a little different to say the least

ECUx would be nice but I'm too tight to buy that. We have another little trick up our sleeves that depending how it works out could either be really good or blooming marvellous! Watch this space
jonnyx

Good luck Mark. If you need any help breaking stuff on your car,
I'm only in Farnborough!. Seriously, don't let me near your car.
philc

Mark you are gonna love the "Manx Tuning" lol.  I had flames coming out the back of mine tonight on a run up the mountain.  

You need to venture over here dude and give your car a proper tonking  
S4

So you like the "Manx Tuning" tell me more about this............ Mark will love it.


Darren
philc

Well there aren't many people I would trust with my RS so I guess that speaks volumes.  If you want to know anymore PM me as this is a touchy subject on here  
Graham

I don't think it is a touchy subject, post away. I'd love to read more.
DavidT

philc wrote:
Well there aren't many people I would trust with my RS so I guess that speaks volumes.  If you want to know anymore PM me as this is a touchy subject on here  


If Rich starts to do this stuff commercially then he will need to pay for sponsorship as other tuners do on here, but otherwise, I don't see a problem ? I think a lot of people are interested in it, so it would be a shame not to post about it.

If anyone has any issues with it, by all means contact Mark or myself.
Andiroo

I agree with David, spill the beans Phil
jcb

where did you get your chip and chip holder?
MarkB

jcb wrote:
where did you get your chip and chip holder?


The parts for the ECU came from http://www.chip-service.de/
viperbl

DavidT wrote:
If Rich starts to do this stuff commercially then he will need to pay for sponsorship as other tuners do on here


But that would require me to think of a snazzy company name!
S4

You so know its "Manx Tuning"

Darren
CliveH

LOL!
philc

http://audisrs.com/sutra69272.php#69272

I've put up a new post as I realised I had Hi-jacked markb's!!
MarkB

Update to follow soon, but for now. Spot the difference (mod)...



and it's not the fact the cover over the brake reservoir and battery is missing.
DavidT

Too easy
Adam

Surely you need two pictures to compare for spot the difference?
rik

Go take a photo of yours in the same state
Adam

But then it would be a spot the difference between two pics...which makes sense
MarkB

Sorry no pic before, but something in the photo above isn't standard S4
DavidT

Got it: windscreen wipers
Adam

MarkB wrote:
Sorry no pic before, but something in the photo above isn't standard S4


So it's a spot the mod, not the difference

Just being pedantic as I can't spot the difference
MarkB

DavidT wrote:
Got it: windscreen wipers


Very good, but that now means there is something else to spot
MarkB

Adam wrote:
MarkB wrote:
Sorry no pic before, but something in the photo above isn't standard S4


So it's a spot the mod, not the difference

Just being pedantic as I can't spot the difference


That's what I said
S4

shiny maf housing.......
MarkB

S4 wrote:
shiny maf housing.......


It does look clean doesn't it
DavidT

Clean & big I'd say ?
S4

Hitachi ?
DavidT

Sony ?
MarkB

S4 wrote:
Hitachi ?


Still bosch...



RS4 maf, accordion and airbox fitted

The RS4 airbox is so much better than the S4 one. Not only is the opening larger it has a nice trumpet. This time I do have 2 pictures...


S4 airbox


RS4 airbox
MarkB

*** UPDATE ***

*** UPDATE ***

Progress is slow but I can assure you work has been happening. Proof in the picture



The car is still running what is effectively the standard tuning map but some interesting changes have been made…

1. Measuring block modifications
2. RS4 MAF scaling correction

Let’s cover the measuring block changes first... As you’ll be aware the car is with me in Surrey and Rich with all his coding knowledge is on the IOM, so I need to be able to log relevant information from the car so we can be sure how the car is reacting to each change made to it and the MAP.

First option was to buy ECUx but being tight as I am I couldn’t justify the expense  (~£170) for just tuning my car, especially as I’d stumbled upon something in VCDS that with Rich’s coding help I hoped would give us all the info we require.

One thing that hadn’t even occurred to me before starting this was that the measuring block parameters could be changed so blocks could be made to read whatever we wanted. So over the last few weeks we’ve been trying different channels of information in blocks 007-9



This worked great and looked to make the logging much easier, but it’s the next thing that’s going to make the biggest impact on how quickly we can progress. As we all know the more groups of blocks we log the lower the sample rate goes down. Two block and you’re lucky to get 2 scans per second. Three and it’s just unusable for tuning really.

Block 000 – this is THE thing. Not normally used for anything worthwhile it gives 10 channels of raw data from the ECU.

But then aren’t all the ECU channels raw data? Well yes they are, and the ECU code knows what to do with each of them so why shouldn’t we? The normal channels have identifiers with them and VCDS puts a correction factor against the value to give the end-user/logger real world values. So after some time and logging we’ve (Rich has) worked out what the correction factors are, so with the use of an excel spreadsheet we are able to turn our 10 channels of raw data into 10 channels of useful information



We’re going to log block 000 and a special block 009 to show us live data of lambda and knock voltage just to play it safe. So we now have 14 channels at ~ 2 samples per second Well happy with that!

Onto the next stage of the update… I’d been getting high MAF reading and wondered if I had a failing MAF. I know most go low but I’m sure I read somewhere they can go high also… Well everyone say the best way to check is to fit a new one. Knowing my future plans I wasn’t going to buy a new S4 one but was willing to fit a new RS4 one

So as you can see from the pictures previously this is now fitted, but my MAF reading is still high so last night I bit the bullet and got the spanners out…

Massive boost leak, looks like my f-pipe is split. Explains why I did so badly at VMAX but at least it’s given me the push to get started on this

Next stage of the project will come when I’ve fixed the leak and hopefully the MAF reading will be down to standard levels!
Graham

Sounds interesting.

The bright side is you only did a few track days and drove at 150mph with your massive boost leak! Maybe your turbos have evolved into stronger than usual items!
s4woody

viperbl wrote:
DavidT wrote:
If Rich starts to do this stuff commercially then he will need to pay for sponsorship as other tuners do on here


But that would require me to think of a snazzy company name!

how about "Rich Tuning"  
S4

s4woody wrote:
viperbl wrote:
DavidT wrote:
If Rich starts to do this stuff commercially then he will need to pay for sponsorship as other tuners do on here


But that would require me to think of a snazzy company name!

how about "Rich Tuning"  



He knows its "Manx Tuning"

Darren
jeffw

Mountain Tuning
dummi

good job lads, I'm enjoying this thread
buzzard

"All done in a fancy marquee from B&Q" tuning
MarkB

Graham wrote:
Sounds interesting.

The bright side is you only did a few track days and drove at 150mph with your massive boost leak! Maybe your turbos have evolved into stronger than usual items!


I'd been taking the approach of not checking for leaks and if they failed I'd have to replace them.

But it's one of those things, now I know there's something wrong it needs to be sorted...

I pretty sure it's the f-pipe so I'll be doing a delete rather than replace. Photo's and write up to follow
MarkB

F-pipe delete done all pressure testing fine now

Details of the delete here... http://audisrs.com/about5890.html

I think I have an issue with the N75 which needs looking at but generally the engine is running well so it's time to start tuning

I'll post some current logs later...
viperbl

Looking good Mark

Fun part starts now
MarkB

Some logs





I think I'm getting a FATS of ~6.4secs
Graham

The peak maf is still very strong for a stock map isn't it?
MarkB

Graham wrote:
The peak maf is still very strong for a stock map isn't it?


Agreed but everything seems to check out. Could it be the ITG filter, RS4 airbox/maf and Milltek exhaust helping it breath better?
H714DHG

OR MAF scaling out?
MarkB

H714DHG wrote:
OR MAF scaling out?


I don't think so but I could bung the S4 maf and code back on and try it...

I did butcher the S4 accordion hose though to make the RS4 one fit better to the S4 y-pipe
H714DHG

I have learnt the hard way with assumptions before! Always worth checking, esp. if you are remote tuning like this. The tuner is relying on your car being right.

This is why i prefer proper live mapping with emulator in car.
MarkB

H714DHG wrote:
I have learnt the hard way with assumptions before!


No assumptions being made here. We'll check it all out.

H714DHG wrote:
This is why i prefer proper live mapping with emulator in car.


Can't see how that would help us get to the bottom of this  
H714DHG

Im just trying to help.

As long as you are running WB02 you shouldnt have any issues, which i guess you must be trying to tune your car
MarkB

H714DHG wrote:
Im just trying to help.

As long as you are running WB02 you shouldnt have any issues, which i guess you must be trying to tune your car


Appreciate that

I have a few more things to check and will post up the results

Thanks
jonnyx

MarkB wrote:
Graham wrote:
The peak maf is still very strong for a stock map isn't it?


Agreed but everything seems to check out. Could it be the ITG filter, RS4 airbox/maf and Milltek exhaust helping it breath better?


I'd say yes. When tuning my car (a few years ago now) Mihnea started with
a stock base map and my car pulled 230 g/s on that (with Milltek and RS4
IC's)
MarkB

jonnyx wrote:
MarkB wrote:
Graham wrote:
The peak maf is still very strong for a stock map isn't it?


Agreed but everything seems to check out. Could it be the ITG filter, RS4 airbox/maf and Milltek exhaust helping it breath better?


I'd say yes. When tuning my car (a few years ago now) Mihnea started with
a stock base map and my car pulled 230 g/s on that (with Milltek and RS4
IC's)


Thanks Jon, that helps put my mind at rest.

I still have new one-way valves to fit and will leak check the system once again and also check the DV's though they are relatively new.
DavidT

I'd say no I'm afraid. I think there will be a reason for it Mark. 230 / 0.8 = 287.5 so a big increase on stock for no tuning.

My car was doing 225 stock & that was due to a leaky DV. It then went to 215.

Are you doing the runs in third gear, flat road ?

How do you know you have the calculation right for the RS4 MAF ?
MarkB

I got 225 in 3rd and 230 in 4th IIRC
DavidT

Yes, it will flow more air in higher gears, uphill etc. as you know

225=small boost leak IMO. Happy to be wrong though mate
MarkB

I'll check it all again and report back
DavidT

This thread should be in projects & builds.
MarkB

Great news! My car now gives a MAF reading of ~212g/s

You're going to like this.... We'd made an error in the factor used calculating the MAF value in our block zero spreadsheet

Ran a log in block 003 and all looks fine I'll post it up later when I get it off my car pc
MarkB

DavidT wrote:
How do you know you have the calculation right for the RS4 MAF ?


We know it's right now.... because it was wrong before (in excel, not the MAP!)
Graham

well that's as bang on as the /0.8 calculation gets!

Reference point set - get tuning!
MarkB

Sure is

We've started to play with the boost so we'll be able to give details on that soon.

I've made the decision to put the S4 MAF back on to do some tests with standard code and will re-install the AmD chip to get some more logs off that also.

Trying the keep the playing field as fair and level as possible.

Once the tune on my current hardware is complete I'll be booking the car into Surrey RR for before and after power runs
MarkB

Logs below. First one with lower than stock boost gave a FATS time of 6.75secs and the second with slightly higher boost gave 6.1sec.

You can see the MAF is now in the ball park

jonnyx

What's all this 'slightly' stuff? turn it up to 11
DavidT

Nice figures, smooth with very good timing, I bet it's a nice car to drive now

I would like to see how it does with the AmD map & an S4 MAF.
Graham

Not sure I follow what your current base lines are - slightly higher boost and slightly lower boost than stock?

Give the developement you are sharing, I'd love to see stock S4, your AmD chip and then what ever stages Rich is going to take you throguh/too.
MarkB

Thanks David, yes it is nice to drive now and I will be refitting the S4 MAF and AmD map for testing again.

Graham, I have logs with the stock code (apart from RS4 MAF) installed so just need to put it back into the corrected Excel spreadsheet. I'll post it up if you like.

As I've just said above I'll put the car as far back to stock as possible and do some more logs, but I won't be taking the Milltek off and I have an opened up airbox. I don't think they're doing anything for performance at stock boost levels though anyway.
MarkB

MarkB wrote:
I have logs with the stock code (apart from RS4 MAF) installed so just need to put it back into the corrected Excel spreadsheet.


Just had a thought, these logs might have been when I still had a boost leak. I'll do some again...

Another thing that I forgot to post, I'd been worried that boost wasn't coming up too well at low revs, looked like a sluggish N75... and guess what, it was! Thanks to Rich for posting me one over to try

The stage is now set to progress things, the code in the car at the moment has more boost but I failed to get a log Friday. Nice clear stretch of test track, went for it... got to the end and found VAG-COM had stopped logging because of too many communication errors

I'll be out again today and will post the results  
MarkB

As of yesterday going purely by MAF reading (253g/s) the car is @ ~316bhp

We have new code on the car today but the traffic was poor so no new logs though at 5K rpm it was pulling 15g/s more than yesterday.

Whilst logging yesterday I had a little dual with what I think was a modified Megane Sport (had tuned by RS Tuning stickers in the rear window), so 260+bhp? He did OK but not good enough

If the owner now reads this please don't now say it was standard and only running on 3 cylinders
MarkB

FATS update.... 5.28 seconds today
MarkB

4.98!

FATS is improving but then the fuel tank is emptying





My AmD previous best was 5.66 with the timing pushed forward 3.75 deg. before that it was nearer 6 seconds

Really happy that it looks like my car has what it takes to be a quick one
jeffw

Your garage has what it takes to be faster...
MarkB

jeffw wrote:
Your garage has what it takes to be faster...


Yes, it will all be going on in stages over the next few months. No excuses now
Adam

jeffw wrote:
Your garage has what it takes to be faster...


Major lolage at that one Jeff
jonnyx

Really good timing there Mark.
MarkB

jonnyx wrote:
Really good timing there Mark.


Timing is good and the car feels really strong now. Though we are having a few issues with boost at low rpm. The turbo's don't seem to want to go over 1bar.

I've just put the S4 maf and AmD chip back in to do some more logs and FAT's runs now I'm boost leak free...
H714DHG

what are the wg's set to with n75 unplugged? what boost
MarkB

I don't know. I'll have to give it a try.

Looks like even with the AmD chip back in there the engine doesn't want to go over 1bar  
MarkB

Here's a log with the N75 disconnected



standard boost map

How does that look? Seems to be around .35bar / 5psi which is the wastegate setting isn't it?

I've got it in my head that it's the pre-cats stopping it spool
MarkB

It's boosting over 1bar now got nearly 1.5bar

All back in check now, more logs to follow soon...
davs4

Did you find the cause Mark?

1.5 bar on K03= Bye Bye turbos  
MarkB

Yeh all good again now. Max 1.2 ish
MarkB

Well I can now say what does kill turbo's...

A sudden boost leak at full boost.

So this is the end of stage 0.1

I'd like to think that we got to stage2? it was running so well.

The car's running an RS4 MAF giving a consistant MAF reading equating to about 320PS.

I was getting 15 to 20 mph faster in the straights @ Castle Combe and a FATS of around 5 seconds.

I so wanted to get it on the rollers next month but the resident dentist has put paid to that.

Next stage coming soon  
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