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Kent

What RS6 Hybrid Spec?

Looking for anybodies experience of RS6 hybrids on RS4 motor and what sort of output should be expected. What sort of spec do your turbos have? Also whats the spec of the motor?

Im currently thinking:
Keep the RS6 shaft possibly with clip or larger opening
2283 / s3 tfsi compressor wheel
Larger inlet
Uprated actuator?
Might do some porting on it while its in pieces?

Going by Adams he saw approx 680hp and 580lbft. Abeit he had a decent spec motor with lower cr, cams and intake but on standard rods.

Jimbo i think youve once run some similar?

Any input would be appreciated.
Mocke

Dont

That Wheel is used in TTE700 and are prone to surge if large inlets used. Boost needs to be kept lower resulting in lower output.
I have seen it in a couple of setups that was pushed harder.

Imho oem RS6 turbo or if you want hybrid TTE780 is the best choice.
Kent

I think i want to keep boost lower anyway. Im keeping stock CR and keeping stock rods for now. At what point have you witnessed surge? Ive read it been an issue somewhere cant remember where.

Shall i build something more inline with 780 then and keep take it easy with the boost?

I dont want oem RS6 its not enough.
Mocke

At initial spool.
3500-4500rpm.
I hade to onset and lower initial boost pretty much.
Resulting in a way laggier setup
Max power was no issue thou.
But you do not wanna loose spool and power under the curve if going this route.
Kind of looses the point.
Kent

Mocke wrote:
Dont

That Wheel is used in TTE700 and are prone to surge if large inlets used. Boost needs to be kept lower resulting in lower output.
I have seen it in a couple of setups that was pushed harder.

Imho oem RS6 turbo or if you want hybrid TTE780 is the best choice.


just as a side question... what is normal size inlets are used? would this increase the air speed and or pressure on inlet side of the wheel to help it keep spinning?

and then as another side question... what is it about the 780 that is so good when the engine can still only consume the same amount of air but the turbo will no doubt be flowing more.

Does this then point to increasing the size of the turbine bigger still so its a better balance?
Kent

or maybe as a compromise go for 2280 wheel?
Mocke

Oem inlets are 2
Going this route you need at least 2.25 or 2.5inch.
Problem with turbos is a mismatch,  too big compressor for the turbine.
It swallaws more than it can evacuate. Cosing turbine to choke itself.

780s has porsches k16 turbine which is good match.
Kent

yeah i was planning on 63mm / 2.5 inlets.

i understand the theory of how surge comes about with stalling wheel speed. im trying understand what might be a better spec than what i posted.

would 2280 wheel be a better alternative being smaller in your opinion?
Mocke

Kent wrote:
yeah i was planning on 63mm / 2.5 inlets.

i understand the theory of how surge comes about with stalling wheel speed. im trying understand what might be a better spec than what i posted.

would 2280 wheel be a better alternative being smaller in your opinion?



Yes.
Kent

Thanks for the input!
Kent

Who is running anything similar? Anybody?
Shamx1166

https://youtu.be/0jOYjLLhVD0

Seen this and a rs4 seems barely quick compared to a rs6 k26 spec turbo which may be US spec rs6 hybrid.

Well worth the money comparing to rs4 ko4 upgrade again each to Thier own.

Look forward to see the outcome of your build  
Mocke

That is srm k24 turbo. China.
I delt with couple of those.
Not worth it or comparable to what OP is aimin for.
muscledelivery

I just bought some oem rs6 turbos with the compressor housing cut and welded. I was under the impression these are more than enough for stock rods? Infact I'm kind of worried about it, and I don't have e85 just UK 99 and 50/50wmi . Surely a tte780 is way overkill for stock block? It makes sense for growing room sake i suppose.
Kent

They are ace on an S4 and yes boost needs to be controlled when mapping. This is stock RS4 block for now they can take a bit more of a kicking. 780 spec of turbo would be pushing it too far on stock RS4 apparently. But again i suppose boost could be conservative while i find the funds to buy parts for forging.
muscledelivery

 ahhh that makes more sense then lol. A nice rs4 block would do me fine aswell    
Hope I made the right choice swapping from rs4 k04 to rs6, loved how my car went on k04 just hope the rs6 is a step in the right direction.
Your build sounds like it will be awesome btw.
Kent

mate s4 on rs6 turbs is amazing. stick some rods in if you can stretch to it so you can be brutal with the torque delivery.
muscledelivery

I've got another engine I've bought forged rods for and 2.4 heads and cams. But this one's going in stock then I'll swap all the gear to the other when it's built. Hopefully it's the right choice going rs6 on this then, just a little bit excited to say the least haha.
Flyboy

muscledelivery wrote:
 ahhh that makes more sense then lol. A nice rs4 block would do me fine aswell    
Hope I made the right choice swapping from rs4 k04 to rs6, loved how my car went on k04 just hope the rs6 is a step in the right direction.
Your build sounds like it will be awesome btw.


This is a compilation of some results I've gathered for each.

Rick

i have an aversion to large compressor wheels and small turbines...
Kent

Rick wrote:
i have an aversion to large compressor wheels and small turbines...


This is what i want to hear Rick! I can understand why. I see what the issue is. I just want to know what qualifies as a good mix from people who know better.

I take it your definately talking about 2283 then based on what evertbody knows?

2280??

You get my email??
okkim

I know a few cars which have 2280 or 2283 compressor wheels and clipped turbine wheel. All those cars work great and doesn't surge.  Normal RS4 Inlet pipes.
Kent

So i could use OE inlets this time round if i wanted just to keep things simple.

Obviously wouldnt be able to get the most out of them. But considering ill be running stock CR also maybe this is a little irrelevant as im guessing id struggle to get north of 625ish with 9.0-1.
Mikse

Kent wrote:
But considering ill be running stock CR also maybe this is a little irrelevant as im guessing id struggle to get north of 625ish with 9.0-1.

Depends on the dyno. In My local dyno RS6/2283 cars with all supporting mods e.g. heads/cams and turbos maxed have made between 630-640bhp with E85!
Mocke

Mikse wrote:
Kent wrote:
But considering ill be running stock CR also maybe this is a little irrelevant as im guessing id struggle to get north of 625ish with 9.0-1.

Depends on the dyno. In My local dyno RS6/2283 cars with all supporting mods e.g. heads/cams and turbos maxed have made between 630-640bhp with E85!


That is actually really low output for E85.
As those turbo/setups are rated around 700 on 102.
640bhp should be made with petrol.

The one i tuned with tte700 that had surge problems got 790bhp as highest at 2.3bar up top.

Bc of surge i hade to onset boost later in spool and reduce at topend to have Clean run.
Was still about 750bhp, very fast car.
There are many videos we made with this car this summer at racedays.

I Think RNagy here had RS6/2283 as well and made 690ish on e85 and also had surge problems.
He can share more about it.
Mikse

Mocke wrote:
Mikse wrote:
Kent wrote:
But considering ill be running stock CR also maybe this is a little irrelevant as im guessing id struggle to get north of 625ish with 9.0-1.

Depends on the dyno. In My local dyno RS6/2283 cars with all supporting mods e.g. heads/cams and turbos maxed have made between 630-640bhp with E85!


That is actually really low output for E85.
As those turbo/setups are rated around 700 on 102.
640bhp should be made with petrol.

The one i tuned with tte700 that had surge problems got 790bhp as highest at 2.3bar up top.

Bc of surge i hade to onset boost later in spool and reduce at topend to have Clean run.
Was still about 750bhp, very fast car.
There are many videos we made with this car this summer at racedays.

I Think RNagy here had RS6/2283 as well and made 690ish on e85 and also had surge problems.
He can share more about it.

Someone could call it a "heard breaker dyno" but thats what the dyno gives
Pretty much every RS6/2283 setups I´ve seen run out of puff ~1,8-1,9bar so 2,3bar at redline sounds really high.

Do you have any 100-200kmh times how fast was the 750bhp car? Could make some comparison.
Kent

i thought that was a bit low especially for e85.

am I going to struggle realising the those top end numbers with stock compression? Im not bothered if i am as more interested in whats happening earlier on in the range still but its nice to know.
Mocke

[quote="Mikse:736179"]
Mocke wrote:
Mikse wrote:
Kent wrote:
But considering ill be running stock CR also maybe this is a little irrelevant as im guessing id struggle to get north of 625ish with 9.0-1.

Depends on the dyno. In My local dyno RS6/2283 cars with all supporting mods e.g. heads/cams and turbos maxed have made between 630-640bhp with E85!


That is actually really low output for E85.
As those turbo/setups are rated around 700 on 102.
640bhp should be made with petrol.

The one i tuned with tte700 that had surge problems got 790bhp as highest at 2.3bar up top.

Bc of surge i hade to onset boost later in spool and reduce at topend to have Clean run.
Was still about 750bhp, very fast car.
There are many videos we made with this car this summer at racedays.

I Think RNagy here had RS6/2283 as well and made 690ish on e85 and also had surge problems.
He can share more about it.

Someone could call it a "heard breaker dyno" but thats what the dyno gives
Pretty much every RS6/2283 setups I´ve seen run out of puff ~1,8-1,9bar so 2,3bar at redline sounds really high.

Do you have any 100-200kmh times how fast was the 750bhp car? Could make some comparison.[/



These are TTE turbos. They can take boost.
As it was surging i keept initial boost lower at apx 2bar and raising with rpm. Peaking 2.3 bar at 6700rpm.
I have logs on it.
It did exactly 6 sec 100-200 with 2 guys  measured directly from the ROM of the speed sensor.
Got a log on that too.
On a raceday in summertemps and IATs 60-90deg it did 6.8 sec from a rolling start with 2 shifts. Measured with Vbox.
Power and speed was truly there.
Kent

[quote="Mocke:736181"]
Mikse wrote:
Mocke wrote:
Mikse wrote:
Kent wrote:
But considering ill be running stock CR also maybe this is a little irrelevant as im guessing id struggle to get north of 625ish with 9.0-1.

Depends on the dyno. In My local dyno RS6/2283 cars with all supporting mods e.g. heads/cams and turbos maxed have made between 630-640bhp with E85!


That is actually really low output for E85.
As those turbo/setups are rated around 700 on 102.
640bhp should be made with petrol.

The one i tuned with tte700 that had surge problems got 790bhp as highest at 2.3bar up top.

Bc of surge i hade to onset boost later in spool and reduce at topend to have Clean run.
Was still about 750bhp, very fast car.
There are many videos we made with this car this summer at racedays.

I Think RNagy here had RS6/2283 as well and made 690ish on e85 and also had surge problems.
He can share more about it.

Someone could call it a "heard breaker dyno" but thats what the dyno gives
Pretty much every RS6/2283 setups I´ve seen run out of puff ~1,8-1,9bar so 2,3bar at redline sounds really high.

Do you have any 100-200kmh times how fast was the 750bhp car? Could make some comparison.[/



These are TTE turbos. They can take boost.
As it was surging i keept initial boost lower at apx 2bar and raising with rpm. Peaking 2.3 bar at 6700rpm.
I have logs on it.
It did exactly 6 sec 100-200 with 2 guys  measured directly from the ROM of the speed sensor.
Got a log on that too.
On a raceday in summertemps and IATs 60-90deg it did 6.8 sec from a rolling start with 2 shifts. Measured with Vbox.
Power and speed was truly there.


Forgive me but are you not contradicting your original response a little there?
Mocke

No, i will try to explain.

This is E85.
On regular Power you will never be able to hold this kind of boost up top.
Besides it is TTE turbos. They can take beating.

The Point here is not peak numbers. It is Power under the curve.
In this application full boost could not be achived ( this is what Counts and make fast cars) until 4700rpm. And boost onset had  to be easy ( graduate).
if you compare it to TTE780s where i can demend Everything out of turbo as low is it physically  possible.
We are talking :

TTE700  -  2 bar at 4300rpm
TTE780  -  2,4 bar at 4300 rpm. or 2 bar at 3800rpm. ( with a bigger Wheel) Moves more air.
This puts those two in hole different League when it comes to torque delivery.
Now - 2 bar + may seem very much boost, but it is not. This size turbo needs atleast 2.2 bar to get really insane.
Hope it makes sense
Kent

I hear you taking it all on board. Cheers dude.

At the moment im thinking 2280 then.
Mocke

Kent wrote:
I hear you taking it all on board. Cheers dude.

At the moment im thinking 2280 then.



That would be good.
Cheers
Kent

Mocke wrote:
Kent wrote:
I hear you taking it all on board. Cheers dude.

At the moment im thinking 2280 then.



That would be good.
Cheers


Just out of curiousity is it the 2283 on k16 in the tte780?
Nez

OK i had two different turbo's one with RS4 Hybird Stage 2 which was running around 509 PS and then I went for full standard rs6 turbos pushing to 572 PS...

Check both graph's you will see the difference between each turbos



With RS6 Turbos:




Hope that will give you some idea's  
Mikse

Mocke wrote:

These are TTE turbos. They can take boost.
As it was surging i keept initial boost lower at apx 2bar and raising with rpm. Peaking 2.3 bar at 6700rpm.
I have logs on it.
It did exactly 6 sec 100-200 with 2 guys  measured directly from the ROM of the speed sensor.
Got a log on that too.
On a raceday in summertemps and IATs 60-90deg it did 6.8 sec from a rolling start with 2 shifts. Measured with Vbox.
Power and speed was truly there.

Stongest RS6/2283 car I know here run 6,5s 100-200kmh but that car hasn´t been in a dyno. 2bar peak and maybe 1,8bar max @redline. But same setup and maxed turbos.

One Audi S4 avant in local dyno measured 740bhp and ran 5,8s with S4 gearbox, no flast shift and 235/35/19 tires.
6s with RS6 based turbos turbine housing/wheel is very good result. What are the specs of TTE700? Amazing they can hold that much boost up top if they are similar specs. RS6 turbine wheel/housing is very small.
Kent wrote:

Just out of curiousity is it the 2283 on k16 in the tte780?

No, TTE780 have 67mm compressor wheel and 2283 is 59mm
Kent

Nez wrote:
OK i had two different turbo's one with RS4 Hybird Stage 2 which was running around 509 PS and then I went for full standard rs6 turbos pushing to 572 PS...

Check both graph's you will see the difference between each turbos



With RS6 Turbos:




Hope that will give you some idea's  


Interesting. Not much more peak torque presumably because you already had hybrids. Although it came in 500rpm earlier. RS6s help on to it longer.

Am i right in saying that you dropped the CR when you went RS6 nez?
Mocke

Mikse wrote:
Mocke wrote:

These are TTE turbos. They can take boost.
As it was surging i keept initial boost lower at apx 2bar and raising with rpm. Peaking 2.3 bar at 6700rpm.
I have logs on it.
It did exactly 6 sec 100-200 with 2 guys  measured directly from the ROM of the speed sensor.
Got a log on that too.
On a raceday in summertemps and IATs 60-90deg it did 6.8 sec from a rolling start with 2 shifts. Measured with Vbox.
Power and speed was truly there.

Stongest RS6/2283 car I know here run 6,5s 100-200kmh but that car hasn´t been in a dyno. 2bar peak and maybe 1,8bar max @redline. But same setup and maxed turbos.

One Audi S4 avant in local dyno measured 740bhp and ran 5,8s with S4 gearbox, no flast shift and 235/35/19 tires.
6s with RS6 based turbos turbine housing/wheel is very good result. What are the specs of TTE700? Amazing they can hold that much boost up top if they are similar specs. RS6 turbine wheel/housing is very small.
Kent wrote:

Just out of curiousity is it the 2283 on k16 in the tte780?

No, TTE780 have 67mm compressor wheel and 2283 is 59mm



TTE700

http://audisrs.com/archive/tte700...-turbochargers__o_t__t_56021.html

TTE780

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/thre...hargers-rs4-s4-b5-a6-2-7t.234835/


Sorry  i was wrong. This was some time/cars ago.
It was 2.2 bar boost max on the car i was talking about.
Ataching boost profile graph. As you can see - boost is very delayed to avoid surge. 2 bar at 4750rpm. That is really late, compared to 780s that does it under 4000rpm.

https://s28.postimg.org/mk0qmuhdn/Sk_rmklipp_2017_01_02_19_45_02.png

Surge problem with 700 series is known to TTE and those were taken away from production, and bc 780 does practicly Everything better, 700s wasent needed is my understanding.
Kent

Appreciate that. I've been thinking long and hard about this and contra to my usual style of 'f*ck it just do it' im now very sure i dont want to kill the overall driving experience waiting for lots of boost really late on like it looks like it will with 2283.

Im a bit of yob normally lol but i guess i must be using my brain a little more this time round. I want a very fast car but completely appreciate it doesnt just happen with all out headline figure in real world scenario.

A friend took me out in his new S3 saloon today thats just been MRC stage 1 mapped. It was great in how instant it was and still kept going some. He's got a TTE525 on the way.

I can see why TTE would have pulled the 700 when the 780 is in the same zone but no where near as good. Simon told me not to use the 2283 in favour of the 2280 a while back.

I know 2280 is Porsche GT2, Extended Tip Tech but Cast unfortunately? Struggling to find many case studies although i think JHM RSR over the pond is the same?
Nez

Kent wrote:
Nez wrote:
OK i had two different turbo's one with RS4 Hybird Stage 2 which was running around 509 PS and then I went for full standard rs6 turbos pushing to 572 PS...

Check both graph's you will see the difference between each turbos



With RS6 Turbos:




Hope that will give you some idea's  


Interesting. Not much more peak torque presumably because you already had hybrids. Although it came in 500rpm earlier. RS6s help on to it longer.

Am i right in saying that you dropped the CR when you went RS6 nez?


Yes  
Mocke

JHM is Chinese as is SRM.
Do not go that route.
Really great solution, if you don't know wanna go bananaz is oem RS6 turbo.
It is reliable and spool and topend are good.
It is great DD setup.
I've had it myself before going tte780
If i would ever go back to any oem solution-it would be oem rs6.
Loved it.
muscledelivery

Mocke wrote:
JHM is Chinese as is SRM.
Do not go that route.
Really great solution, if you don't know wanna go bananaz is oem RS6 turbo.
It is reliable and spool and topend are good.
It is great DD setup.
I've had it myself before going tte780
If i would ever go back to any oem solution-it would be oem rs6.
Loved it.


Not trying to high jack the thread but are rs6 turbos in your opinion good on a stock block s4 engine? I've just installed them on the engine and realy hoping I like it over the k04. Just worried they will be reigned in so much i will get more lag than I had with a decent increase in peak power or at least how much power it carries right through from spool.
Looks like from the graphs they are 500rom later but after another 1000rpm are making much more power and hold that longer. Only will that be the case on a stock block?
Kent

Mocke wrote:
JHM is Chinese as is SRM.
Do not go that route.
Really great solution, if you don't know wanna go bananaz is oem RS6 turbo.
It is reliable and spool and topend are good.
It is great DD setup.
I've had it myself before going tte780
If i would ever go back to any oem solution-it would be oem rs6.
Loved it.


No don't get me wrong I'm not going anywhere we are building them ourselves. My mates got a turboshop so I use him for my stuff.

I was just talking in terms of likeness in spec (ingnoring the chinease factor).

To get some basis for comparison.

I've got rs6 now and I've had them on an s4 which was much fun.

I want to up the ante when moving To Rs4 motor.
Mikse

muscledelivery wrote:

Not trying to high jack the thread but are rs6 turbos in your opinion good on a stock block s4 engine? I've just installed them on the engine and realy hoping I like it over the k04. Just worried they will be reigned in so much i will get more lag

S4 heads/cams + RS6 turbos and the word "lag" should not be used in same sentence. There really isn't any. Should have come that way from the factory.
Kent

Mikse wrote:
muscledelivery wrote:

Not trying to high jack the thread but are rs6 turbos in your opinion good on a stock block s4 engine? I've just installed them on the engine and realy hoping I like it over the k04. Just worried they will be reigned in so much i will get more lag

S4 heads/cams + RS6 turbos and the word "lag" should not be used in same sentence. There really isn't any. Should have come that way from the factory.


Agreed. The world 'brutal' however can be used.
ian52

I wish I had gone RS6 turbos when I had min refurbed.
C J

Who's doing your turbos for you?
Kent

C J wrote:
Who's doing your turbos for you?


Me and my pals. They've got a shop in Leeds off Geldard Road called Turbo Clinic Uk.
C J

Kent wrote:
C J wrote:
Who's doing your turbos for you?


Me and my pals. They've got a shop in Leeds off Geldard Road called Turbo Clinic Uk.


Awesome. I thought you'd be having a go as you did with the current ones.  
Kent

C J wrote:
Kent wrote:
C J wrote:
Who's doing your turbos for you?


Me and my pals. They've got a shop in Leeds off Geldard Road called Turbo Clinic Uk.


Awesome. I thought you'd be having a go as you did with the current ones.  


Cant wait. Paul the MD has taken on my mate Ben whos been an engineer for years. They've just taken delivery of a CNC lathe.
rs6 hib

Sounds like I'm going for a very similar set up Kent standard compression but have got forged s4 engine will this the full force of the tte 600 or 780s

Or is better to fit lower compression gasket
muscledelivery

To say I'm excited about rs6's now is an understatement lol
Kent

rs6 hib wrote:
Sounds like I'm going for a very similar set up Kent standard compression but have got forged s4 engine will this the full force of the tte 600 or 780s

Or is better to fit lower compression gasket


Sweeeet. I take it your looking at swapping heads for some large ports ones also? Otherwise you're really not going to realise the capabilties of those turbos. You'll easily max out the flow capabilities of standard s4 heads.

Compression is a funny one. I will be lowering mine at some point. The only reason im not this time is im hoping to not split the motor right now to keep things moving along.

Ideally you want to run as higher compression as possible to keep off boost driveabilty there, fuel economy etc but you dont want to limit your setup especially the advance of timing by experiencing knock if running too much boost.

you dont want an awesome turbo like a 780 that is wasted on an engine that cant realise its potential due to too poor flowing heads or running a too high compression.

You need to match the spec of your turbos to the engine and vice versa.
Kent

muscledelivery wrote:
To say I'm excited about rs6's now is an understatement lol


Flyboy

Kent wrote:
Sweeeet. I take it your looking at swapping heads for some large ports ones also? Otherwise you're really not going to realise the capabilties of those turbos. You'll easily max out the flow capabilities of standard s4 heads.


S4 heads.

Kent

with e85 and meth so no point posting that we dont get it here.

what spec is that. peak torque is very late.

highest known figures over here on normal premium fuel is apparently 550hp which probably isnt far off your that graph when you remove e85 and meth. but it think most struggle to get that. not really what you want with blowers capable of 780 on 102.

the best thing you can do on S4 is straight RS6.
armageddon

Is that on standard s4 heads or ported heads and +1mm valves like the other gt28 car.....
armageddon

muscledelivery

That seems low that one, or is it me? 400ps on hybrids? Is that whp surely should be at least 450? 529ps on tte600 with lower compression and rods surely it should be more than that. Lacking wmi I suppose is holding it back but I thought with lower comp even on s4 heads it would be more. I'm sure unicorn cracked 50x-bhp on tte550 with no meth and stock s4 block and heads stock compression.
muscledelivery

It's on unicorns Facebook, 509bhp on tte550 no water meth but wagner intercoolers.
Mocke

All TTE est numbers are for 102oct.
Using Ordinary 98Ron and you are way down.
So 529bhp for TTE600 on 98 is in the ballpark, a bit low i Think as well.

Mine 780s did around 700bhp on 98 straight, and 820 on E85 and there is more in it on ethanol.
Turbos are hotside restricted, bigger comp wheels, doesnt do any good, just shoot up EGTs.
Rick

Another 20bhp from 550's to 600's seems reasonable to me given the standard heads and intake.

Rick
muscledelivery

Mocke wrote:
All TTE est numbers are for 102oct.
Using Ordinary 98Ron and you are way down.
So 529bhp for TTE600 on 98 is in the ballpark, a bit low i Think as well.

Mine 780s did around 700bhp on 98 straight, and 820 on E85 and there is more in it on ethanol.
Turbos are hotside restricted, bigger comp wheels, doesnt do any good, just shoot up EGTs.


This is why I didn't see the point in ploughing money into hybrids in the end. I thought straight rs6 has a slightly bigger cold side anyway but it should remove the major hotsides restriction and help me combat the egt. Seemed like sense.
Mikse

Mocke wrote:

Mine 780s did around 700bhp on 98 straight, and 820 on E85 and there is more in it on ethanol.
Turbos are hotside restricted, bigger comp wheels, doesnt do any good, just shoot up EGTs.

+800bhp with small 6cm2 RS6 housing based turbos is very impressive. I think it just shows what I've been reading the turbine wheel is a bigger restriction than the housing.
Mocke you should try to pull standing mile in some event?
Kent

woah hang were starting to confuse things here.

we've started discussing RS6 turbos etc on S4 heads fair enough but the original post is a discussion about RS4 motor not S4.
armageddon

I would say straight rs6 turbos, or with 2280 wheel plus whater/meth kit should be enough to get 600+hp,no need to mess with CR
Flyboy

Kent wrote:
with e85 and meth so no point posting that we dont get it here.


The 33 psi at 7500 rpm is what I find noteworthy, on S4 heads.

armageddon wrote:
Is that on standard s4 heads or ported heads and +1mm valves like the other gt28 car.....


Lightly ported S4 heads with stock size valves.
Kent

Flyboy wrote:
Kent wrote:
with e85 and meth so no point posting that we dont get it here.


The 33 psi at 7500 rpm is what I find noteworthy, on S4 heads.

armageddon wrote:
Is that on standard s4 heads or ported heads and +1mm valves like the other gt28 car.....


Lightly ported S4 heads with stock size valves.


Why do find that noteworthy? Please explain?

And not standard S4 heads then.
Mocke

Mikse wrote:
Mocke wrote:

Mine 780s did around 700bhp on 98 straight, and 820 on E85 and there is more in it on ethanol.
Turbos are hotside restricted, bigger comp wheels, doesnt do any good, just shoot up EGTs.

+800bhp with small 6cm2 RS6 housing based turbos is very impressive. I think it just shows what I've been reading the turbine wheel is a bigger restriction than the housing.
Mocke you should try to pull standing mile in some event?


K16 shaft and E85 is what unleash the power with 780s.
We don't have those overhere but i do attend flying Km.
Is rollong start from 50kph.
Tte700 car did 285 on the clock this summer event.
Beat alot of high power cars. Lost only to a 900hp GTR.
We will see what mine does this summer.
Mocke

muscledelivery wrote:
Mocke wrote:
All TTE est numbers are for 102oct.
Using Ordinary 98Ron and you are way down.
So 529bhp for TTE600 on 98 is in the ballpark, a bit low i Think as well.

Mine 780s did around 700bhp on 98 straight, and 820 on E85 and there is more in it on ethanol.
Turbos are hotside restricted, bigger comp wheels, doesnt do any good, just shoot up EGTs.


This is why I didn't see the point in ploughing money into hybrids in the end. I thought straight rs6 has a slightly bigger cold side anyway but it should remove the major hotsides restriction and help me combat the egt. Seemed like sense.



I belive you.
Oem RS6 are so god deam good for just about any need.
I ran it on e85 boosted as hell.
600bhp on a DD map and 650 on killmode.
Raced this sammer with it and did pretty good first part of the summer
Last event this summer i damaged my throughout bearing.
It was time to rebuild tranny as well.
Thats when I decided to build 780 build and everything that includes.
muscledelivery

The rs4 engine is just such a different beast isn't it realy. I think in your shoes, if I were upgrading the rods anyway, I'd be chasing a 3.0 crank. You have all the extra flow from the heads and cams. And if you increased the displacement you could spool them k16 turbines much faster. I was planning having a similar set built but I was going to go 2283 comp wheels, not sure I would do that now though, seems the 2280 is better?
Flyboy

Kent wrote:
Why do find that noteworthy? Please explain?

And not standard S4 heads then.


At 33 psi and 7500 rpm there is quite a bit of air flowing through the S4 heads.  It's one datapoint for what can be done with an S4 head.  

They were lightly ported.  While they are no longer as delivered from the factory, I wouldn't consider lightly porting an S4 head something that will make them the equivalent of an RS4 or 2.8 head with respect to intake airflow.

Maybe I'm just not following what you mean by this:

Kent wrote:
I take it your looking at swapping heads for some large ports ones also? Otherwise you're really not going to realise the capabilties of those turbos. You'll easily max out the flow capabilities of standard s4 heads.


When I read "max out the flow capabilities of standard S4 heads" I'm thinking of the system being choked because the head cannot flow any more.  I've shown an example of S4 heads supporting 33 psi at 7500 rpm, which I have thought to be around where a TTE780 may be operated.
Mocke

RS engine is better at everything but mostly it is E85 that makes the power possible. You cant come even close these outputs on petrol.
TQ and range on e85 is amaizing.

My engine and heads are fully built already.
No - i would not go 3.0l if i would build another engine.
2.8 tops.
Kent

1. I wish everybody would stop talking about E85 lol. Its making me jealous.

2. I've got a 3ltr crank but im not fussed for rushing into that just yet. Alot to be done with rods, pistons, girdle etc. Plus im not too sure what i think about the increase in rod angle from larger stroke.

3. Unless ive got it wrong Flyboy (which there is a strong chance) what does 33psi mean? High boost pressure in effect can just be a sign of an engines inability to consume the air. Which is sort of what we are saying are we not? Pressure built up because the heads cant flow it?

My point is that if S4 heads top out in the ~530hp region on 99 then whats the point in specifying a 700 hp capable turbo that is the tte780??
muscledelivery

Kent wrote:
1. I wish everybody would stop talking about E85 lol. Its making me jealous.

2. I've got a 3ltr crank but im not fussed for rushing into that just yet. Alot to be done with rods, pistons, girdle etc. Plus im not too sure what i think about the increase in rod angle from larger stroke.

3. Unless ive got it wrong Flyboy (which there is a strong chance) what does 33psi mean? High boost pressure in effect can just be a sign of an engines inability to consume the air. Which is sort of what we are saying are we not? Pressure built up because the heads cant flow it?

My point is that if S4 heads top out in the ~530hp region on 99 then whats the point in specifying a 700 hp capable turbo that is the tte780??


Your point to number 3 is what I assumed myself, interested in what the answer is there.
Rick

It's all very well putting 33psi into the intake manifold, but but you then have to get it in and out of the head.  It's easier to make boost on a poorly flowing cylinder head than a better one with pressure being a resistance to to flow.

RS4 engine is hugely better at making power than an S4.  On 98 octane, no water meth, 440bhp is your real limit on plain K04's on an S4.  On an RS4, with the same boost, you can nudge 500bhp.  Start using larger turbo's and the difference is magnified.

Rick
Kent

my new custom head runs 1000psi Manifold Pressure now ive welded all the intake ports closed
muscledelivery

Yeah thats what I thought, if you can't get the pressure in and out fast enough to then it's easier to hold it in the intake manifold. Its going to build and hold since the engine can't consume it. But doing that on an rs4 with the extra flow I suppose you arent worried about boost per se  but rather the volume or cfm the larger turbos can push even at lower boost.
The rs4 is just so different it's apple to oranges vs s4 setup.
Flyboy

Kent wrote:
3. Unless ive got it wrong Flyboy (which there is a strong chance) what does 33psi mean? High boost pressure in effect can just be a sign of an engines inability to consume the air. Which is sort of what we are saying are we not? Pressure built up because the heads cant flow it?


Yes, I suppose it is possible there was 33 psi in the intake manifold but a significant amount less in the engine.

I don't believe that was the case though.  The car also made 575 whp on 93 octane.  Unfortunately I do not have a log of the MAF sensor reading to use, assuming it would have been accurately calibrated.

At that max manifold pressure and engine speed, and a rough idea of the conditions at the dyno that day, an estimate for the mass flow rate per turbo is around 34.3 lbs/min.

If we apply the 1 lb of air to 10 HP rule of thumb, and a 17% drivetrain loss (15-19 seems common), the amount of air required to support that 575 whp is 33.6 lbs/min per turbo.

33.6 and 34.3 aren't exactly the same mass flow rate, but there's a bit of estimating taking place in both calculations.  On the other hand I think they're close enough that I doubt the MAP was 33 psi and the engine was only seeing 28 psi.
Kent

Flyboy wrote:
Kent wrote:
3. Unless ive got it wrong Flyboy (which there is a strong chance) what does 33psi mean? High boost pressure in effect can just be a sign of an engines inability to consume the air. Which is sort of what we are saying are we not? Pressure built up because the heads cant flow it?


Yes, I suppose it is possible there was 33 psi in the intake manifold but a significant amount less in the engine.

I don't believe that was the case though.  The car also made 575 whp on 93 octane.  .


What????
Flyboy

Kent wrote:
What????


I'm not sure how to answer that question.

The car that I showed the dyno sheet for also was tuned for 93 octane gas, on that fuel, with w/m injection, it made 575 whp.  This is one of the dyno screen shots from during the tuning, it doesn't look like it was the 575 pull, but it's not my car (I wish) and I don't have all the dyno charts they made.



I'm merely providing some results from a car, with my opinion about what the results may say about S4 heads.  I'm open to evaluating results from other cars that show different if somebody wants to present them.
Kent

is that graph showing it at the wheels or engine? looks like engine?

you said 575whp. which is over 600 with drivetrain losses (625-650?)

and thats on 93ron fuel?

im guesing you didnt mean power at the wheels. however. im still struggling to understand where everybody is going wrong when he can get better figures out of worse fuel than what we use. And lets face it we're not looking at a bit more were talking huuuuge improvements.

Somebody has posted results from another car earlier in the thread. Coupled with comments explaining them. Not by some cowboy outfit but by one of the most respected tuners here in the UK that have messed with more B5s than ive probably seen pictures of.

What is the source of this car?
Mocke

It says eng power in the graph.
575whp is more like 680+ bhp.
That would be huge.
Kent

Mocke wrote:
It says eng power in the graph.
575whp is more like 680+ bhp.
That would be huge.


Exactly hence my whaaaaaat?
Kent

I still don't understand the very strong numbers on 93
muscledelivery

I understand why you use whp vs chp, but why do American whp nearly always read the same or higher in this case as our chp. You wouldn't get near that here on that fuel even at the crank.
armageddon

It was 93+meth, ported heads, 2.8 cams.


...also, je 82.5 pistons and low comp gaskets
Kent

so not stock at all. in the slightest.

why dont we start comparing some cylinder heads from a completely different car just to change the goal posts and confuse things even more
rnagy86

93 us octane is ~98 european

Regarding the surge issues i had with the 2283 wheel was tracked down
to wastegate issues.

The real surge that these will have are really down in the RPM range
where the engine can't digest the amount of air put through it.

However what turbo you want really depends on how much money you have.
If you have the money go for Porsche K16 turbos or TTE but if you don't,
go with custom 2283 wheel or 2280.
Kent

why are we even taking about this. back to topic. so far ive decided 2280, rs6 turbine clipped, slight overbore, ported and big inlets.

but who knows the wind could change.

Id like to build a 780 spec but we're struggling how to figure out how to get the k16 shaft to play ball with the K04 bearing housing.
Kent

rnagy86 wrote:
93 us octane is ~98 european

Regarding the surge issues i had with the 2283 wheel was tracked down
to wastegate issues.

The real surge that these will have are really down in the RPM range
where the engine can't digest the amount of air put through it.

However what turbo you want really depends on how much money you have.
If you have the money go for Porsche K16 turbos or TTE but if you don't,
go with custom 2283 wheel or 2280.


Thank you pointing that out for me! Didnt know that fuel ratings weren't universal accross the world. We'll that explains it then.
Kent

rnagy86 wrote:
93 us octane is ~98 european

Regarding the surge issues i had with the 2283 wheel was tracked down
to wastegate issues.

The real surge that these will have are really down in the RPM range
where the engine can't digest the amount of air put through it.

However what turbo you want really depends on how much money you have.
If you have the money go for Porsche K16 turbos or TTE but if you don't,
go with custom 2283 wheel or 2280
.


I have no money lol. Hence cant buy TTE.

But thats no fun for me. I want todo it myself with my friends. Im not bothered if they arent the best performing spec possible for whatever reason.

I already have RS6 frame to mess around with so will be staying with this type.
armageddon

Kent wrote:
so far ive decided 2280, rs6 turbine clipped, slight overbore, ported and big inlets.


this plus meth should be more then enouth.

I remember seekng a post from prj where he got +100hp from the meth after a map adjustment
muscledelivery

Surely you won't see 680chp on light ported s4 heads on pump fuel seems high still. Cant get my head round that. Those are large port and better fuel numbers. It would make sense if it was 575chp to me. The heads choke at 530chp. A light Polish isn't going to give 150chp more.
Not calling bullshit or just confused why consistently us cars make similar whp to our chp.
rnagy86

tte either has a custom chra or they have a custom built k16 wheel for the k04 shaft
Kent

rnagy86 wrote:
tte either has a custom chra or they have a custom built k16 wheel for the k04 shaft


Yeah ive been trying to get my head around it on how to make it work.
Mocke

muscledelivery wrote:
Surely you won't see 680chp on light ported s4 heads on pump fuel seems high still. Cant get my head round that. Those are large port and better fuel numbers. It would make sense if it was 575chp to me. The heads choke at 530chp. A light Polish isn't going to give 150chp more.
Not calling bullshit or just confused why consistently us cars make similar whp to our chp.


S4 heads does not choke so low.
There are literally 100 S4s out there with S4 heads with way more power.
Search for EFRtwinscroll S4.
Oem S4 heads 2.8 cams. . He did 630whp - 730-750bhp.
muscledelivery

Mocke wrote:
muscledelivery wrote:
Surely you won't see 680chp on light ported s4 heads on pump fuel seems high still. Cant get my head round that. Those are large port and better fuel numbers. It would make sense if it was 575chp to me. The heads choke at 530chp. A light Polish isn't going to give 150chp more.
Not calling bullshit or just confused why consistently us cars make similar whp to our chp.


S4 heads does not choke so low.
There are literally 100 S4s out there with S4 heads with way more power.
Search for EFRtwinscroll S4.
Oem S4 heads 2.8 cams. . He did 630whp - 730-750bhp.


Now I'm confused lol
Kent

Mocke wrote:
muscledelivery wrote:
Surely you won't see 680chp on light ported s4 heads on pump fuel seems high still. Cant get my head round that. Those are large port and better fuel numbers. It would make sense if it was 575chp to me. The heads choke at 530chp. A light Polish isn't going to give 150chp more.
Not calling bullshit or just confused why consistently us cars make similar whp to our chp.


S4 heads does not choke so low.
There are literally 100 S4s out there with S4 heads with way more power.
Search for EFRtwinscroll S4.
Oem S4 heads 2.8 cams. . He did 630whp - 730-750bhp.


I think thats a bit of a bold statement. There doesnt seem to be many here in the UK.

Besides we're starting to muddle the conversation here. We were discussing standard S4 heads. What you've just mentioned isnt standard S4 heads.
Kent

and why are we back discussing S4 heads again?
Rick

Also, if it's an American Dynojet, my flywheel figures are comparable to their whp.  

Rick
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