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 Rare UR Quattro, bringing it back to life...... View next topic
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Noggymike
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Car: 2002 B5 RS4
Power: 430 bhp
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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Location: In front of you, lol'ing

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:58 pm  Reply with quoteBack to top

Fantastic update Doug

I knew I was going to regret sending you the pic of my pathetic first attempt at packaging the box, as it was going to come back and haunt me

You wait till the NRH needs reassembly, you would have forgotten how you took it apart by then  


Anyway, good progress so far, correct with the box being a second hand unit. I have a receipt for it, but no paperwork precluding it's need for replacement, however it was that cheap back in the day, it was probably more viable to fit a replacement than examine a problem with the original. Who knows why, but at least you can source correct parts still etc.

Looking forward to seeing how you overcome locking the input shaft.



btw









Do you want me to send you some Vanish for xmas?  

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guymcc
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Car: Misano RS4 B5
Power: 504ps
Torque: 604nm

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:42 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Nice update Doug!  Was laughing at the transport upgrade!

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Norrs2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Yeah, excellent info there Doug!!

Mike - did you drain the oil?

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coullstar
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:57 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Lol I did have a wee chuckle at that update.  This thing is going to be mint when finished.

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jockthedog
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

So on with the longwinded and frankly pretty tedious mini-sub-assistant-to the-main-thread thread.

Here’s a bolt. Here’s another bolt.

I’ll try to keep it swift.

Had a restive night last night, worrying about a part I hadn’t seen.
About 1cm long and 2mm diameter, little slug of metal. Where the feck is it?

We’ll see.

I had left the box all together trying to figure out how to lock the input shaft to get the bolt out, to get the end off, to get at the rest of the gears etc etc.


So I did figure it out of course. Get the bell off and then nylon jaws in the vice. Ok simple enough.


Drive shafts off - these are normal hard bolts and can be reused. (01E uses stretch bolts)

IMG_0883 by jockthedog, on Flickr


Diff cover off - 9 bolts. (01E uses 10)

IMG_0884 by jockthedog, on Flickr
IMG_0885 by jockthedog, on Flickr

I expected an oring to replace here but this seems to be sealed with paste instead.


The diff cover is on the other side of the pinion shaft in this box vs the 01E box

IMG_0887 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Meaning that the diff is in there until the input shaft comes out with the rest of the gears.
The drive for the speedo is down there under the diff too. Maybe that’s why it has to come out this way?
Weird.

IMG_0888 by jockthedog, on Flickr


Back of diff cover is a little ermmm stained. And there is a magnet hidden under all that swarfy grease, at 2 o’clock.

IMG_0890 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Little spring pin holds it in. All cleans up nicely.

IMG_0892 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Now I knew I had to get the centre diff out before the end can come off, and thanks to the handwritten notes I found at t85q.com, I knew what to do….

First off, that scrawny looking bolt that I reckoned was an anchor for the diff lock wire has to come off.

IMG_0893 by jockthedog, on Flickr


That gives access to the fork for the diff lock and theres a spring pin to drive out of the (and into the box! Yikes! no choice in that really but it does kinda commit you!

Holding the diff lock down while driving the pin (and taking this pic!)

IMG_0894 by jockthedog, on Flickr


Pulling the diff lock rod out, it comes with the spring and the rubber grommet.

IMG_0898 by jockthedog, on Flickr

And then the the diff lock collar can be removed with the fork. Note the tiny seal on the rod.

IMG_0901 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Diff lock on the centre diff is easily removed by hand.

IMG_0902 by jockthedog, on Flickr
IMG_0903 by jockthedog, on Flickr

And then a slide hammer to pull the diff out of the housing, again not difficult although it has to be wiggled a bit
and turned back and forth to find the point where it slides off easily.

IMG_0904 by jockthedog, on Flickr


Centre diff is very very simple. Compared to the torsens etc. Still a lovely wee bit of kit IMHO.

IMG_0906 by jockthedog, on Flickr


At this point I went fishing for the spring pin from the fork and ta da, there it is.

IMG_0909 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Now onto the removing bell housing. 12 little piggies, all nice and easy to remove after a good soak in fluid.

IMG_0912 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_0914 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Lever off the rear of the box easy enough.

IMG_0916 by jockthedog, on Flickr


Terrible photo but the only one I have of the bearing housing etc, still ‘wet’ from the bell housing.

IMG_0917 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Some detail of the 3/4 hub and synchros (brass) and the reverse gear end plate, all almost the same as the 01E
I feel at home with this now.

IMG_0919 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Same looking down into the housing. Those holes at 12 o clock would have tiny bearings for the selector rods in the 01E box, but these are simple sleeves.

IMG_0921 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Having the input shaft available to the vice allowed me to crack off the multi point bolt on the other end and a little very gentle persuasion to pull the end cover off, to reveal the next job - 5th gear,

IMG_0922 by jockthedog, on Flickr

The end cover holds onto the multipoint bolt, above the ball bearing which I’m not replacing. Fine by me!

IMG_0923 by jockthedog, on Flickr


The front diff can now be lifted out, making the bell housing a lot lighter and I also pulled out the speedo drive wheel which fits on the end of the diff shaft, and I also removed, cleaned and numbered the switch for reverse gear, I think that one is.

IMG_0925 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_0928 by jockthedog, on Flickr
IMG_0931 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_0935 by jockthedog, on Flickr


Before I attack 5th gear, I have one more little job - remove the tapered roller bearings from between the pinion shaft and the hollow shaft. 01E has 23 of these, slightly smaller, but I was glad to have read elsewhere, or I’d have been looking for one all night.
Nope there are only mean to be 22 in this box.

IMG_0940 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Those box has a circlip on the pinion to stop them all falling out by accident.
And another split ring to stop the needle bearing falling off it too.

And that wasn’t what I was losing sleep over last night



Using my favourite wee puller on the 5th gear drive gear, splined to the shaft under the other half of the ball bearing inner race. G clamp stops the tiny feet from slipping.

IMG_0942 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Measuring the clearance on the synchro ring. More than 1mm = no problem. Wear limit is 0.5mm, although the inside surface is also important to inspect.

IMG_0943 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Then I drove out the pin on the fork and could remove the whole stack of hub, collar and 5th sliding gear.

IMG_0944 by jockthedog, on Flickr

These have a double height needle bearing inside.
I’m leaving the springs and synchro keys in for now but I’ll replace the springs.

IMG_0945 by jockthedog, on Flickr

I marked the hub and collar just in case they are sensitive to location.

IMG_0946 by jockthedog, on Flickr

The a simple snap ring and a little leverage to get 5th gear off the hollow shaft.


IMG_0948 by jockthedog, on Flickr



Next I had to pop out the pin on the 2nd gear fork to get it out the way (01E box has a circlip for this)
Then pop the inner bearing race off the input shaft and pull it out nice and easy.

IMG_0950 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_0953 by jockthedog, on Flickr

The 3/4 gear collar slides right off this configuration leaving the 3 wee keys to fall out.
I’ll get back to the input shaft soon.

IMG_0954 by jockthedog, on Flickr



Now remove the reverse gear (identical to 01E box).

IMG_0955 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_0956 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_0957 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Now the 3rd gear fork has to come out as it blocks the removal of the hollow shaft.

IMG_0958 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Has to be supported while driving to pin, to avoid damaging the shaft sleeve in the housing.

IMG_0959 by jockthedog, on Flickr

There are stop pins to limit the shifter rod movements and the 1/2 and 3/4 ones are on the casing.
These didn’t even look like bolts to me, but sure enough, some more allen bolts that didn’t get mangled.
There should be wee orings under these. No sign.

IMG_0960 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_0961 by jockthedog, on Flickr

By tilting the 3/4 rod thru 90 degrees, the detente at the far end can be subverted and the shaft slides out easily.

IMG_0962 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_0967 by jockthedog, on Flickr

I had read to insert a bolt in its place to avoid losing the interlock pins.
There are two little pins with rounded ends which sit between the 3 rods, seated into little dents in the sides of the rods in neutral position.
When a gear is engaged, the pin(s) are forced out of the dent(s) on the rod being moved and into the dents on the other two rods, stopping them for sliding into another gear.

Now because there are 3 rods, the two on the outside somehow have to ‘know’ that the other one has been selected
and this means that the middle rod has a hole in it, with the tiniest of pins in THAT hole, which is just long enough to push the pin on one side of it out of the wee dent and into the next rod’s wee dent.

Here’s a picture

Screen Shot 2016-12-21 at 10.58.44 by jockthedog, on Flickr

I spent a good 20 minutes looking for this tiniest of pins. Couldn’t find it.
It was definitely there. Where did it go??????



One sleepless night later, back in the garage and sure enough, it had fallen from the gearset where it had rested the previous evening.
I think it was in between two teeth on 1st gear.

IMG_0968 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_0969 by jockthedog, on Flickr


To get the rest of the gears out was easy enough, and I put a couple of small bolts in to stop the little interlock pins from sliding out.

IMG_0970 by jockthedog, on Flickr

1/2 selector rod and fork.

IMG_0975 by jockthedog, on Flickr

I had a little play with the reverse gear which has a real CLUNK to it in tis box.


This is the reverse-engaged position.

IMG_0972 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Then the neutral and

IMG_0974 by jockthedog, on Flickr

finally the 5th gear selection position.

IMG_0973 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Having pulled out the hollow shaft, there’s a shim on the end to keep hold of.

IMG_0977 by jockthedog, on Flickr

This is 2nd gear selected

IMG_0982 by jockthedog, on Flickr

and 1st gear selected, on the hollow shaft.

IMG_0983 by jockthedog, on Flickr


The reverse gear engagement teeth around the collar are pretty well worn. Someone has been crunching this into reverse at non-zero revs

Not a lot I can do about this and its not worth the 400-odd quid for a new collar.
But reverse will be a bit interesting to find I reckon.

IMG_0984 by jockthedog, on Flickr
IMG_0987 by jockthedog, on Flickr
IMG_0988 by jockthedog, on Flickr



Pressing off the end bearing with my favourite bit of pipe. This job used to talk me 20 minutes of sweat, with a puller.

IMG_0989 by jockthedog, on Flickr

First gear pops off with the bearing, a washer, the needle bearing inside it and the synchro ring below it

IMG_0990 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Detail showing the end of the spring which holds the 3 wee keys in place.
This end has a tiny hook on it.

IMG_0991 by jockthedog, on Flickr

I marked the hub and collar in case the location is important.

IMG_0993 by jockthedog, on Flickr


Labelling the keys to avoid mixing them up with others. They’ll get wrapped in this paper towel.

IMG_0994 by jockthedog, on Flickr

The spring will be replaced.

2nd gear can then be pressed off with the hub, the inner race for the 1st gear needle bearing and its own needle bearing and synchro ring

IMG_0996 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Detail of 2nd gear synchro ring, which should be nice and matt and not shiny. The clearance is fine but there’s a distinct lack of Moly
on this ring, which is not a big surprise.

IMG_0995 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Detail of 1st gear ring shows a different type - less grippy but less susceptible to wear.

IMG_1002 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Hollow shaft. Naked!

IMG_0997 by jockthedog, on Flickr

And there’s that stack, in order.

IMG_0999 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Finally (?) the input shaft.

IMG_1003 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Huge circlip almost defeated my pliers, but no real problem with any of this shaft, other than the 3rd gear ring which was also a bit worn.

IMG_1004 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Here it is

IMG_1009 by jockthedog, on Flickr

and here’s the 4th gear ring which is how these SHOULD look…

IMG_1005 by jockthedog, on Flickr

And here’s the rest of the input shaft, all laid out.
Those needle bearings are supposed to be in two parts btw

IMG_1010 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Finally finally, onto the rear diff.
Mike, I noticed a couple of missing bolts here, which I assume held a mounting or suchlike?

IMG_1012 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Removed the drive shafts as for the front diff.

The other diff lock cover bolts pop off easy enough. Revealing the very very claggy rear diff.
Is the oil supposed to be like tar? Yikes!

IMG_1013 by jockthedog, on Flickr

There’s another wee magnet on this cover and it was as manky as it could be.

IMG_1015 by jockthedog, on Flickr

As is the rest of the housing. So I spent a while cleaning the parts. I’ll need to remove the pinion shaft too, but I can see all I need to see. No problems here other than well-cooked oil.

IMG_1017 by jockthedog, on Flickr




And that is all for now.
I’ve ordered several 100 pounds worth of parts which should arrive over the next couple of weeks and then I
can start the rebuild.

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tanoga
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Joined: 06 Jul 2012
Posts: 1533

Location: Dunstable

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Great work and write up as ever Doug

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Noggymike
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Car: 2002 B5 RS4
Power: 430 bhp
Torque: Whatever
Engine code: BHP

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:03 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Fantastic update Doug

Glad you finally sorted locking the input shaft!

Nice to see that some of the internals are similar to what you are used to with the B5 boxes, so dipping in and out of your comfort zone

Sorry to cause you sleepless night btw  

Re rear diff, the missing bolts held on the diff lock mounting bracket

Looking forward to the parts arriving and getting the bits back together before you forget where they all go!    

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confusionhunter
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Car: whatever works...

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 1747

Location: West Lothian

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Due to those updates, Doug, this thread might have more picture/fact content about the gearbox than the rest of the car put together!!!

BTW Doug did my S4 gearbox recently and I received a similar update via email on my box. At the risk of this sounding like a 'Doug plug'.... why would you give your 'box' to anyone else?


Never thought a post containing phrases like 'Doug Plug' and giving away your box; would be so innocent....

Mike, Loving the NRH. Please give a rabbit a home after you get your Box back.....

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Ian_C
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:18 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Excellent write up!!!!

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Noggymike
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Car: 2002 B5 RS4
Power: 430 bhp
Torque: Whatever
Engine code: BHP

Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I bow to Doug's updates.




Way more informative than my usual tosh!

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Markv
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Noggymike wrote:
I bow to Doug's updates.




Way more informative than my usual tosh!


   +1

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lewiswlawrence
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Mightily impressive update Doug. Loving this thread. Keep up the good work everyone.

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jockthedog
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Car: S4-B5.3
Power: C5-RS6Plus
Torque: in' hell!
Engine code: 0xFA

Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 3013

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Just a few more pics - honest!

Started cleaning up the gearbox counterweight which is rusty and losing the rubber coating.

Before…
IMG_1026 by jockthedog, on Flickr

After…
IMG_1032 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Adding some rust eater to make it all metal again before I plasticoat it.

IMG_1034 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Onto the rear diff now, and the big nut which holds the drive pinion in place.
This nut has a collar which is peened into a gap in the shaft. This nut has to go on to exactly the same position, which is why the shaft and nut are both marked with alignment lines

IMG_1039 by jockthedog, on Flickr

released the peened collar to allow the nut to turn….

IMG_1042 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Holding the flange in place with a ‘special tool’ I made, and here’s the nut.

IMG_1043 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_1046 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Rusty old lot, the drive shaft flange, and mucky behind it.

IMG_1047 by jockthedog, on Flickr
IMG_1048 by jockthedog, on Flickr


So cleaned up and added more rust eater
IMG_1049 by jockthedog, on Flickr

The seal looks ok but will be replaced when I receive the new one.
IMG_1050 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Finally the cover plate with the diff lock mechanism still attached.
Circlip and washer to remove on the inside of the cover…

IMG_1051 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Detail showing the worm drive for the fork which engages the diff lock…

IMG_1053 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Removing the plug which seems to do nothing much.

IMG_1054 by jockthedog, on Flickr

The early diff diagrams here:



shows an oring, a spring and a bushing which I imagine acts as a detente for the engagement.
All I found in the box was the plug itself.
The drawing on etka has only the plug and the oring.
My theory is that the original diff was operated completely manually, rather than using pneumatics to turn this rod. With the pneumatic-operated lock, there would be no need to have a 'notch' for the selector.


Removed the switch which will turn on the 'diff locked' light on the dashboard, along with the little extension/push-rod which rests on the fork itself.

IMG_1056 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Detail showing where that pushrod fits at the bottom of the hole for the switch…

IMG_1058 by jockthedog, on Flickr


To get the selector rod out, there’s another circlip to remove which hides under the oil seal.
The oil seal has to be removed with a hook and gets replaced.

IMG_1059 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_1060 by jockthedog, on Flickr


The gap between the oil sealing lip and the dust sealing lip on the seal is full of rusty stuff and the rod is corroded, on the dust seal side. That means that crap can get into the space between the lips and cause further rust.

IMG_1061 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_1067 by jockthedog, on Flickr


I dunno if this part is even still available. Hmmm seems it is, at a price.

Unscrewing the diff rod from the worm drive in the fork, retrieving the washer which was under the circlip and the spacer which stops the fork moving too far on the worm screw.

IMG_1062 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_1063 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_1066 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Here’s all the parts laid out, including the destroyed seal.

IMG_1068 by jockthedog, on Flickr

And that is all until the parts arrive for the rebuild.






Honest.

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Noggymike
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:50 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Doug

Great update as always.



My thoughts on the diff lock mechanism are

A) It could have been manual (Norm will confirm)
B) It may have been previously fooked about with to resolve being inoperative and internals removed.
C) It doesn't fit into either above as it was such an early car.


My theory is,  if you study the diagrams you posted, is that,
beneath the plug you removed, should be the items on the diagram.

Surely there had to be a mechanism to adjust the pressure against/for the pneumatic system on the selector rod to make sure that it remained engaged/disengaged etc, otherwise it would just have a mind of it's own.

It is no different to hydraulic pressure relief valves other than it doesn't need a outlet for released air as it is under such low internal pressures.






Just my 2p worth









I know, I know






it means












sweet FA

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jockthedog
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:08 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I think this is ok, Mike.

That diagram also shows two seals in the housing cover and there is only one on this diff so this diag is not the 'bible' as far as I am concerned.

I have to assume its a pneumatic system, with all the pneumatic gubbins you removed already!
And I'd also assume that the pneumatic system would have it's own 'detent' in the form of a latch so that once in position, the control arm stays
there until actively activated in the other direction with the cockpit control.
I've yet to see that part of the fork itself to see if it is even compatible with a detent.
Won't see that till I pull the seal and I was waiting till the one one had arrived (which it now has! )

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