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 Rare UR Quattro, bringing it back to life...... View next topic
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Noggymike
Veteran


Car: 2002 B5 RS4
Power: 430 bhp
Torque: Whatever
Engine code: BHP

Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 12093

Location: In front of you, lol'ing

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:53 pm  Reply with quoteBack to top

jockthedog wrote:
I think this is ok, Mike.

That diagram also shows two seals in the housing cover and there is only one on this diff so this diag is not the 'bible' as far as I am concerned.

I have to assume its a pneumatic system, with all the pneumatic gubbins you removed already!
And I'd also assume that the pneumatic system would have it's own 'detent' in the form of a latch so that once in position, the control arm stays
there until actively activated in the other direction with the cockpit control.
I've yet to see that part of the fork itself to see if it is even compatible with a detent.
Won't see that till I pull the seal and I was waiting till the one one had arrived (which it now has! )













IMG_1067 by jockthedog, on Flickr


The pneumatic control plunger is just clamped together on the selector rod, obviously this needs to be set up correctly in neutral etc to tie in with the control mechanism in the centre console, so that's why I'm thinking that the plug/spring/rod set up in your diagram keeps the tension on the selected position etc.????

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2002 B5 RS4 Noggy
2008 BMW 118d Daily slaaaag
2000 TT 225 Roadster (on going project)
1982 UR Quattro gem in the making
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jockthedog
Experienced


Car: S4-B5.3
Power: C5-RS6Plus
Torque: in' hell!
Engine code: 0xFA

Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 2995

Location: Moonbase Alpha

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:51 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

My point was that the pneumatic plunger will be virtually locked in one or other position. It's never going to float freely.

Imagine the diapragm is a rubber hemisphere with the rod attached to its center.
It would 'pop' one way or the other and stay in that shape if the pressure equalised.
There is no force to hold against, really, with the worm drive setup.
As you corner, it might make the fork and sleeve want to slide laterally on and off the hub, but that's against the worm drive.
Isn't there a rule that a worm drive can drive but cannot (easily) be driven? That would stop the above from happening.

If you look at another page from that manual I found, there is a plate which the original manual cable would attach to.
All that said, I'd expect the detent to be used for that setup but unnecessary for the pneumatic one.

Page 64 (67 in the index):
Screen Shot 2016-12-29 at 20.24.28 by jockthedog, on Flickr

If you wanted to change to a manual setup, I think you'd need to source the parts that I have no PNs for.

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jockthedog
Experienced


Car: S4-B5.3
Power: C5-RS6Plus
Torque: in' hell!
Engine code: 0xFA

Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 2995

Location: Moonbase Alpha

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Was there anything attached to that knackered-looking stud on the rear of the gearbox when you got to it Mike?

The didn't look like it would hold much of a nut. Maybe a spring clip?
RH arrow in top left photo, above.

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Noggymike
Veteran


Car: 2002 B5 RS4
Power: 430 bhp
Torque: Whatever
Engine code: BHP

Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 12093

Location: In front of you, lol'ing

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

jockthedog wrote:
Was there anything attached to that knackered-looking stud on the rear of the gearbox when you got to it Mike?

The didn't look like it would hold much of a nut. Maybe a spring clip?
RH arrow in top left photo, above.




Yes, I now see your point re holding pneumatic position, still curious why that plug,spring,rod attachment exists tho ( well nearly on ours!)




Pic below is what I faced.






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2002 B5 RS4 Noggy
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2000 TT 225 Roadster (on going project)
1982 UR Quattro gem in the making
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jockthedog
Experienced


Car: S4-B5.3
Power: C5-RS6Plus
Torque: in' hell!
Engine code: 0xFA

Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 2995

Location: Moonbase Alpha

PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:42 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

So for the penultimate instalment of the gearbox sub-story, lets start with a pile of parts.

IMG_1069 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Iím still waiting for a few parts, but more of that later.


Started with the hollow shaft, which gets a brand new synchro ring - note the Porsche label - a lot of the parts come with added Porker tax.
New springs too, for both synchros.

IMG_1071 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Then putting the 22 tapered roller bearings back onto the pinion shaft, with a little grease to hold them in place.
This forms the main bearing between the hollow shaft and the pinion shaft.

IMG_1072 by jockthedog, on Flickr


All nice and spinny

IMG_1073 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Next comes the input shaft, which gets a new 2nd gear synchro ring - identical to the 3rd gear in fact.
This also shows the springs for the 5th gear synchro, which I thought at first might be used here.
The red mark is factory paint, not blood, although there was some of the latter to follow!

IMG_1074 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Ready to go back into the housing, before adding 5th gear.

IMG_1076 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Reverse gear in place. The manual says the other shaft will fit past it, but I couldnít get that to work so I loosened reverse as I would normally do, and it all went together nicely.

IMG_1077 by jockthedog, on Flickr


Remember that tiny tiny lozenge of steel which I lost for a few hours? This is the hole it drops into, once the 3rd/4th selector rod is pushed home
and twisted to allow me to drop it in. Twist the rod back and then check that only one gear can be selected at any timeÖÖ

IMG_1078 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Phew, all good!


Just a matter of pushing in some pins on the forks, and thatís the main gear housing complete.

IMG_1079 by jockthedog, on Flickr
IMG_1080 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Well, almost. Those wee stop screws are being replaced, along with the tiny gaskets which had disappeared, pretty well.

IMG_1081 by jockthedog, on Flickr

5th gear goes on without any hassle. Just warm the parts up and they slip on.
You can see the thread on the inside of the input shaft on the right, which is where the 3square bolt goes, to marry the two halves of the ball bearing race.

IMG_1082 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Lovely new porker gasket. Made of pure gold, I hear.

IMG_1083 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Blurry pic of the two halves of of the back end, bolted up and that 3square bolt tightened.
Manual for the non quattro box says only 50Nm for the rough equivalent of this bolt, but experience tells me it should be more like 150Nm.

IMG_1084 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Nice new seals for the driveshafts.

IMG_1085 by jockthedog, on Flickr


And Iím short one pic, of the bell housing also installed, and the diff lock fork etc refitted.

Just waiting on a few items now.
Two of them were delivered on Friday, apparently, but not to me, alas.
They will likely be in my neighbourís letter box but heís not been around this weekend and i hope heís not buggered off on holiday for a month!
Itís the final rear bearing for the box and the impossible-to-find oring that seals the back end.

I have some plastidip to coat the rear balance weight with, as a wee treat, and we are also waiting for the corroded selector rod for the rear diff lock
before the jobs done, and Iím also waiting and hoping for a special tool I should use for one of the rear diff seals, which is on order with a german co.

Final episode will follow to complete the box and put the rear diff back together.

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Alps
Expert


Car: RS4 b5
Power: corrupts
Torque: is cheap

Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 4340

Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:07 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

So incredibly envious of your knowledge and skills
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Noggymike
Veteran


Car: 2002 B5 RS4
Power: 430 bhp
Torque: Whatever
Engine code: BHP

Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 12093

Location: In front of you, lol'ing

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm getting excited about getting back the NRH now









Oh yeah





And the box and diff!



Great work Doug

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PM me if you have a S4 FS, always looking for projects.
2002 B5 RS4 Noggy
2008 BMW 118d Daily slaaaag
2000 TT 225 Roadster (on going project)
1982 UR Quattro gem in the making
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Weecalum
Knows a Bit


Car: B5 RS4/Ibiza 1.8T

Joined: 01 May 2012
Posts: 197

Location: Glasgow/Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Where do you source most of your parts? (if you don't mind me asking)
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jockthedog
Experienced


Car: S4-B5.3
Power: C5-RS6Plus
Torque: in' hell!
Engine code: 0xFA

Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 2995

Location: Moonbase Alpha

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:46 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

carparts-pros in germany has been my main source.

TPS prices, but they take paypal.

But Brexit is making them more expensive now and I'll need to get a TPS account.

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jockthedog
Experienced


Car: S4-B5.3
Power: C5-RS6Plus
Torque: in' hell!
Engine code: 0xFA

Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 2995

Location: Moonbase Alpha

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

FInally, Elvis has left the garage and is now heading back to Mr Mike's pad.

Not quite the gilded carriage it arrived in. That will become a set of shelves.

IMG_1148 by jockthedog, on Flickr

To catch up, I had most of the box back together and waiting a couple of parts.

The box is all tidied up now, with new rubber on the rear weight thingy, added after derusting the metal where it was exposed.

IMG_1114 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_1110 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_1113 by jockthedog, on Flickr

IMG_1112 by jockthedog, on Flickr


If you like black rubber, that was for you.

Now onto the rear diff, which went back together again nice and simple.

That wee rod...

Before refurb:

IMG_1067 by jockthedog, on Flickr

After:

IMG_1117 by jockthedog, on Flickr

I needed a special tool to fit one of the seals and I took the opportunity to get another one I'd never found available before now....

Like Xmas, so it was.

IMG_1116 by jockthedog, on Flickr


The big round one on the left is what I needed.
Pulled out the old rings and seals....

IMG_1118 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Fit new seal to tool.

IMG_1119 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Screw tool into diff and pull the seal into place, before packing of sealing grease into it.

IMG_1121 by jockthedog, on Flickr

And the diff was bsically done!
Got that bolt all tightened up to the lines and re-peaned it to the shaft and that was that!

Off for a bit of this (not me btw)

IMG_1126 by jockthedog, on Flickr

and this

IMG_1129 by jockthedog, on Flickr

Before back to the cold, wet grindstone and wrapping everything up to send back to Mike.

Here's the box with most bits that came out of the box and diff.

IMG_1146 by jockthedog, on Flickr

And that, as they as, is that.

PS: I am now the proud owner of the extra tools which will allow me to reshim the rear diff and the front diff, and both pinions, of any Ur or B5 car.
Mike didn't need it but someone will!

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Alps
Expert


Car: RS4 b5
Power: corrupts
Torque: is cheap

Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 4340

Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:18 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I was just thinking of this project yesterday.

Great work mate. Now what happens next?
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C J
Experienced


Car: RS4 B5
Power: 507
Torque: 741
Engine code: AZR

Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 3520

Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

What an epic update Doug!!

What process did you use to refurb the selector rod? Was it metal sprayed and re turned?

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jockthedog
Experienced


Car: S4-B5.3
Power: C5-RS6Plus
Torque: in' hell!
Engine code: 0xFA

Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 2995

Location: Moonbase Alpha

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I give it to these guys, see, and then it comes back fixed

Think it's just a turn, weld, turn again kinda thing.
The rod only rotates a few degrees and only when you lock or unlock the diff.
It doesn't spin so the seal doesn't need to be perfect, and the corrosion was
only under the dust lip but I thought it made sense to correct before the rust
got to the oil lip.

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dhali
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Joined: 28 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Very impressive  
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Noggymike
Veteran


Car: 2002 B5 RS4
Power: 430 bhp
Torque: Whatever
Engine code: BHP

Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 12093

Location: In front of you, lol'ing

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:05 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Once again, huge, huge thanks to Doug for the update (which have been epic all along tbh, trust me the time it takes to upload and collate some of the posts has been unbelievable!) but moreover, just recognise the pure enthusiasm he has shown during this rebuild, not only his research into the UR box and diff components and construction,( which all of you will be unaware of) but also the personal outlay to buy numerous tools at his own cost to complete this job the "right way"

I owe you a mahoosive drink

Thanks Doug







BTW


That golfer guy's wrists are far to sloppy!

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PM me if you have a S4 FS, always looking for projects.
2002 B5 RS4 Noggy
2008 BMW 118d Daily slaaaag
2000 TT 225 Roadster (on going project)
1982 UR Quattro gem in the making
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