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rs4wagon
Learning


Car: golf rallye

Joined: 16 Apr 2015
Posts: 92


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:33 pm  Reply with quoteBack to top

Burnzybubbles wrote:
Sourcing from Germany might work out cheapest, in pretty sure Ben at the turbo unit was doing them for under 1500 but it looks like he's changed his website as I can't find any prices.


3 years ago lol,as i also was looking for new units and seen his post,but he said they are now 2100! I bought new units off SIDMOTORSPORT 1600 as far i remeber,4motnhs ago
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Zildjian
Skilled


Car: B5 S4 Avant & C5 RS6
Power: 442 bhp
Torque: 443 lb ft

Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1866

Location: North Lancashire

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

My K04's have been really drivable for the 4 years I've had the car,...even MORE so after Rick's really clever mapping.

I don't remember my old mapped K03 S4 feeling any perkier low down.

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K04s, RS4 clutch/gearbox/diff/exhaust/grille/spoiler/lights, KKD's, Milltek DPs, 630s, APR Bi-pipe, Bosch 044, Mocal, FMIC, Unicorn Map, B7 RS4 brakes, H&R coilovers/ARBs, Hotchkis mounts, 034 engine mounts, Sportecs, Samco, AWE gauge, B&M, Polyflex...
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gmac78
Knows a Bit



Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Posts: 156

Location: Isle of Lewis

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Email sent to SIDMOTORSPORT, see what he comes back with. Any experience with TTE550's?
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rs4wagon
Learning


Car: golf rallye

Joined: 16 Apr 2015
Posts: 92


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

gmac78 wrote:
Email sent to SIDMOTORSPORT, see what he comes back with. Any experience with TTE550's?


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0...tVC1BeWlKZ0RpeDA/view?usp=sharing

let me no if you get any problems as i spend there already
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gmac78
Knows a Bit



Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Posts: 156

Location: Isle of Lewis

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Yeh will do, thanks.
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Aragorn
Veteran


Car: 1.8TQS Avant

Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 10350

Location: Glenrothes

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Turbos are always a trade off. A bigger turbo WILL spool later and be laggier, its simply physics.

Hybrids have a disadvantage, in that your mating together parts that arent really designed to go. The housings are too small for the larger wheels, which causes compromises.  OEM turbos get these things right and work better as a result.

Personally, i think the standard K04 turbos are about the best all round package you can achieve with an S4. With the right bolt ons you can see 450-475hp. Like the RS6's, a TTE550 or whatever will give you more top end, but at the expense of the bottom end. I've done the hybrid thing (albeit on a 1., and frankly ive gone off them and wouldnt do it again, at least, not when there are sensible OEM offerings instead.

People fixate on a power target, and i think the real world performance gets somewhat warped. Where, in the real world, can you realistically use 450hp for any more than a couple seconds? And how many of those situations would benefit from an extra 50 or 100? Usually roads are traffic and vision limited, and realistically if you cant overtake someone with 450hp, 100 more isnt helping.
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gmac78
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Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Posts: 156

Location: Isle of Lewis

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Having looked at a few of the dyno charts for TTE550 vs K04, they seemed to be very close in spool but with the TTE going on to produce more torque/power than the K04. Certainly caught my eye.

Agree with what you say regarding power, the figure of 500/500 was pretty much what my C5 RS6 was putting out and that put a smile on my face every time i drove it, effortless grunt. However the slush box was zapping a lot of that power so through a manual box in a smaller, lighter car i thought that would be quite something. I'm sure 450 in an S4 will have the same effect!
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Zildjian
Skilled


Car: B5 S4 Avant & C5 RS6
Power: 442 bhp
Torque: 443 lb ft

Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1866

Location: North Lancashire

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:36 am Reply with quoteBack to top

gmac78 wrote:
Having looked at a few of the dyno charts for TTE550 vs K04, they seemed to be very close in spool but with the TTE going on to produce more torque/power than the K04. Certainly caught my eye.

Agree with what you say regarding power, the figure of 500/500 was pretty much what my C5 RS6 was putting out and that put a smile on my face every time i drove it, effortless grunt. However the slush box was zapping a lot of that power so through a manual box in a smaller, lighter car i thought that would be quite something. I'm sure 450 in an S4 will have the same effect!


My 550+bhp C5 RS6 feels a bit faster than my 440+bhp B5 S4 But smoother and more relentless.

_________________
K04s, RS4 clutch/gearbox/diff/exhaust/grille/spoiler/lights, KKD's, Milltek DPs, 630s, APR Bi-pipe, Bosch 044, Mocal, FMIC, Unicorn Map, B7 RS4 brakes, H&R coilovers/ARBs, Hotchkis mounts, 034 engine mounts, Sportecs, Samco, AWE gauge, B&M, Polyflex...
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gmac78
Knows a Bit



Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Posts: 156

Location: Isle of Lewis

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

It's a cracking engine that V8, shame it's such a mission to convert them to a manual box!
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Aragorn
Veteran


Car: 1.8TQS Avant

Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 10350

Location: Glenrothes

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:31 am Reply with quoteBack to top

TTE's graph shows a comparison with a stock K04 which seems pretty disingenuous. I'm sure a comparison with a tuned K04 would show a different story...

Finding an apples to apples comparison isnt easy, as many folk dont change only the turbo and thus go from a highly tuned K04 car, to a highly tuned TTE550 with exactly the same supporting mods. They will instead often change other bits when taking that step up, perhaps manifolds, or downpipes or whatever.

The insides of the TTE550 are LARGER than a stock RS6 turbo. They've also clipped the turbine, which makes the turbine less efficient. Its quite simply impossible for it to respond the same.

The other thing thats not clear from dyno plots is theres a difference between how a turbo responds on a dyno pull (where the engines loaded up to the max and held there) and how it responds on a dynamic level while driving. A dyno plot is mostly just comparing boost threshold, and showing you the best case scenario for the turbos boost profile. When driving you instead get lag. A larger turbo will have more lag. Again, simple physics. More energy is required to get the larger wheels spinning.

Flyboys data shows this lag quite clearly:

http://www.myaudis4.com/2016/04/22/more-tte550-data/

The TTE550 quite simply takes longer to start doing its thing, and in the lower parts of the rev range its taking almost twice as long on his graph.
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Flyboy
Knows a Bit


Car: Audi B5 S4

Joined: 27 Dec 2014
Posts: 180

Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

These were the results I got using K03's and K04's with essentially the same setup on my car.  The fueling had to change for the K04's but other components like IC's and Exhaust were unchanged.  The K04 lines are the upper two versus two different K03 tunes.



The TTE550 is a nice K04-hybrid.  The differences with BW K04's start to get small so it depends on how discriminating you are and how you drive the car.  I could have lived with either one.

I've not installed the BW RS6's yet, but there are some people who feel they're the best turbo to pair with the 2.7T engine.

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gmac78
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Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Posts: 156

Location: Isle of Lewis

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:35 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Heard back from SID Motorsport, 1580 for both turbos. Seems like a good price that for brand new BW K04's.
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rs4wagon
Learning


Car: golf rallye

Joined: 16 Apr 2015
Posts: 92


PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:01 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

gmac78 wrote:
Heard back from SID Motorsport, 1580 for both turbos. Seems like a good price that for brand new BW K04's.

doubt you find any cheaper!!
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Zildjian
Skilled


Car: B5 S4 Avant & C5 RS6
Power: 442 bhp
Torque: 443 lb ft

Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1866

Location: North Lancashire

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:35 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

gmac78 wrote:
It's a cracking engine that V8, shame it's such a mission to convert them to a manual box!


I'm LOVING the autobox

Must be getting old......

_________________
K04s, RS4 clutch/gearbox/diff/exhaust/grille/spoiler/lights, KKD's, Milltek DPs, 630s, APR Bi-pipe, Bosch 044, Mocal, FMIC, Unicorn Map, B7 RS4 brakes, H&R coilovers/ARBs, Hotchkis mounts, 034 engine mounts, Sportecs, Samco, AWE gauge, B&M, Polyflex...
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lewiswlawrence
Skilled


Car: S4 B5 2000 facelift
Power: >500
Torque: >500

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 1108

Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

gmac78 wrote:
Interesting graphs, not sure what to make of it when it comes to day to day driving. According to the graph the RS6 turbo is certainly lacking low down, but on the road, just how much of an annoyance is this compared to RS4 K04?I guess driving style can change to ensure gearing is close to where the RS6 turbos come on strong.

Utilising stock S4 compression what does off boost drive ability feel like? Hard to tell with K03's what this is like since they spool so quick?

Has anyone fitted RS6 turbos to find that they were not happy with the low down performance, to then downgrade if you like, to a quicker spooling turbo?


The B5 platform has been around a while and over the years all manner of turbo combinations have been tried, there is a lot of data out there that lets you do some comparisons. I spent ages doing that when I was deciding on turbos.

With a stock S4 engine, the RS6 option would be a bit of a waste. With the stock rods the boost onset will have to be limited to keep torque safe, plus the S4 inlet manifold and small port heads don't really flow enough to justify the bigger turbo housings. You can run much higher boost and force more gas through, but to make the best of that you need lower compression or water/meth injection. So with a stock S4 engine running RS6 turbos you get all the negatives and not much of the positives, you would easily see 500 but pretty risky on standard rods.

Stock K04's work well on an S4 engine, the sharp torque peak after boost onset (~2,250 -3,000 rpm) is definitely addictive, but can also be a bit tiresome in a road car, as you keep getting in and out of boost in normal driving. The S4 inlet cam and small ports do strangle the top end, so it is not that rewarding to rev to the redline. Works fine on a stock engine though, you will struggle to see 500.

A few folks with the experience to back it up (including Doug from MRC) say that a stock S4 engine drives really well with Hybrid K04 turbos, the boost onset is moved higher up the revs, the higher boost and bigger housings help the top end, so the entire power curve is more natural feeling from behind the wheel. You will see 500, but might be a bit risky on standard rods.

With all the turbo upgrades you need better intercooling and fuelling, so really those costs are fixed if you want bigger power. The hybrid K03 route is interesting, and makes a lot of sense for a road car. The turbos are cheaper and you can get by with cheaper supporting hardware, the stock RS4 stuff would be fine, you won't get anywhere near 500 though.

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Lewis
My attempt to make my ideal road car:
http://audisrs.com/about54755.html
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